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View Full Version : Bush guilty of war crimes???


Evanescence
06-19-2008, 11:53 AM
Well is he?

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"General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes" (McClatchy News June 19, 2008)

WASHINGTON — The Army general who led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison accused the Bush administration Wednesday of committing "war crimes" and called for those responsible to be held to account.

The remarks by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who's now retired, came in a new report that found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other cruel practices.

"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," Taguba wrote. "The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

Taguba, whose 2004 investigation documented chilling abuses at Abu Ghraib, is thought to be the most senior official to have accused the administration of war crimes. "The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture," he wrote.

A White House spokeswoman, Kate Starr, had no comment.

Taguba didn't respond to a request for further comment relayed via a spokesman.

The group Physicians for Human Rights, which compiled the new report, described it as the most in-depth medical and psychological examination of former detainees to date.

Doctors and mental health experts examined 11 detainees held for long periods in the prison system that President Bush established after the 9-11 terrorist attacks. All of them eventually were released without charges.

The doctors and experts determined that the men had been subject to cruelties that ranged from isolation, sleep deprivation and hooding to electric shocks, beating and, in one case, being forced to drink urine.

Bush has said repeatedly that the United States doesn't condone torture.

"All credible allegations of abuse are thoroughly investigated and, if substantiated, those responsible are held accountable," said Navy Cmdr. J.D. Gordon, a Pentagon spokesman. The Defense Department responds to concerns raised by the International Committee for the Red Cross, he said, which has access to detainees under military control.

"It adds little to the public discourse to draw sweeping conclusions based upon dubious allegations regarding remote medical assessments of former detainees, now far removed from detention," Gordon said.

The physicians' group said that its experts, who had experience studying torture's effects, spent two days with each former captive and conducted intensive exams and interviews. They administered tests to detect exaggeration. In two of the 11 cases, the group was able to review medical records.

The report, "Broken Laws, Broken Lives," concurs with a five-part McClatchy investigation of Guantanamo published this week. Among its findings were that abuses occurred — primarily at prisons in Afghanistan where detainees were held en route to Guantanamo — and that many of the prisoners were wrongly detained.

Also this week, a probe by the Senate Armed Services Committee revealed how senior Pentagon officials pushed for harsher interrogation methods over the objections of top military lawyers. Those methods later surfaced in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld didn't specifically approve of the worst abuses, but neither he nor the White House enforced strict limits on how detainees would be treated.

There was no "bright line of abuse which could not be transgressed," former Navy general counsel Alberto Mora told the Senate committee.

Leonard Rubenstein, the president of Physicians for Human Rights, said there was a direct connection between the Pentagon decisions and the abuses his group uncovered. "The result was a horrific stew of pain, degradation and ... suffering," he said.

Detainee abuse has been documented previously, in photos from Abu Ghraib, accounts by former detainees and their lawyers and a confidential report by the International Committee for the Red Cross that was leaked to the U.S. news media.

Of the 11 men evaluated in the Physicians for Human Rights report, four were detained in Afghanistan between late 2001 and early 2003, and later sent to Guantanamo. The remaining seven were detained in Iraq in 2003.

One of the Iraqis, identified by the pseudonym Laith, was arrested with his family at his Baghdad home in the early morning of Oct. 19, 2003. He was taken to a location where he was beaten, stripped to his underwear and threatened with execution, the report says.

"Laith" told the examiners he was then taken to a second site, where he was photographed in humiliating positions and given electric shocks to his genitals.

Finally, he was taken to Abu Ghraib, where he spent the first 35 to 40 days in isolation in a small cage, enduring being suspended in the cage and other "stress positions."

He was released on June 24, 2004, without charge.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/41514.html

Aussie3rddayfan
06-19-2008, 09:52 PM
The abuse suffered by detainees at the various US prisons is shocking. I struggle to understand how one human being can do such heinous acts of torture to another. It almost makes you want to cry. How people can get away with that is amazing. ALOT of people would have to turn a blind eye. And it wasn't just the Americans; if memory serves British and Aussie soldiers stand accused of similar behaviour.

Former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld didn't specifically approve of the worst abuses, but neither he nor the White House enforced strict limits on how detainees would be treated.

Concerning. But there could be any number of reasons for this. Any sources, John?

Leonard Rubenstein, the president of Physicians for Human Rights, said there was a direct connection between the Pentagon decisions and the abuses his group uncovered. "The result was a horrific stew of pain, degradation and ... suffering," he said.

Evidence please. Not heresay.

Evanescence
06-20-2008, 04:52 AM
This was a report out by the man who wrote it...that general. Everything seems to come from that...

Bush apologists and loony Govt sympathisers will say..."We're at war, whats the problem..."

But, yet, no one can truly tell me what country we're at war with....

Based on the PROVEN lies of this Admin and now this, a fair and non-partial investigation into this Pres and Admin should be jetison. While they're at it, 911 should at least be reviewed as well.

Any interference or tampering by this Admin, and Impeachment proceedings should begin....

Ex. Priviledge does not mean LAWLESSNESS....

Howlin' Wolf
06-20-2008, 07:19 AM
watch the documentary "Ghosts of Abu Gharaib".

They show the declassified paper work where Rumsfeld sends the order for these torture methods.

Jesuslove
06-20-2008, 10:29 AM
watch the documentary "Ghosts of Abu Gharaib".

They show the declassified paper work where Rumsfeld sends the order for these torture methods.

I'm counting down the days to the end of this disastrous administration. The memory of Third Day at the last Republican convention saddens me.

Howlin' Wolf
06-20-2008, 11:18 AM
I'm counting down the days to the end of this disastrous administration. The memory of Third Day at the last Republican convention saddens me.

Republican = christian. Jesus was a white, middle class republican.

dont you know that?

Valpo
06-20-2008, 04:26 PM
I'm counting down the days to the end of this disastrous administration. The memory of Third Day at the last Republican convention saddens me.

enough with the dramatic theatrics. This country survived that oaf jimmy carter, it will survive this. And if you truly are the humanitarian you claim to be then you wouldn't even waste your time being "saddened" by Third Day's appearance at the RNC since there are plenty of real things to be saddened over in this world.

Evanescence
06-20-2008, 06:02 PM
I agree with Valpo...I'm saddened by the 500,000 dead Iraqi's WE KILLED all to steal their oil and fulfill the ideals of the madmen in PNAC....all of which are now in this Admin.

Like our genocide of the American Indians, we will also pay for this....it may come sooner than we think/wish....

I'm also saddened by the dishonesty of my fellow Americans-- taking sides and not being honest in the face of PROOF that this president LIED for war.

No one truly cares about the country anymore....the SELF generation is here to stay...

Jesuslove
06-21-2008, 01:36 AM
enough with the dramatic theatrics. This country survived that oaf jimmy carter, it will survive this. And if you truly are the humanitarian you claim to be then you wouldn't even waste your time being "saddened" by Third Day's appearance at the RNC since there are plenty of real things to be saddened over in this world.

Please Valpo....Jimmy didn't get us involved in a messy war. We survived the Carter administration. The world looks down upon America because of the Bush administration.

And I am saddened by Third Day's appearance at the RNC in '04. That's not to say I'm not saddened by many world events. I feel bad for the Third Day members because like many Americans (myself not included), they were deceived by GWB.

Jesuslove
06-21-2008, 01:40 AM
I agree with Valpo...I'm saddened by the 500,000 dead Iraqi's WE KILLED all to steal their oil and fulfill the ideals of the madmen in PNAC....all of which are now in this Admin.

Like our genocide of the American Indians, we will also pay for this....it may come sooner than we think/wish....

I'm also saddened by the dishonesty of my fellow Americans-- taking sides and not being honest in the face of PROOF that this president LIED for war.

No one truly cares about the country anymore....the SELF generation is here to stay...

Amen Ev. There is a lot to be sad about as Americans. And there are still a lot of Americans who supported Bush who will deny Bush lied. How is America supposed to be respected in the world when we are not willing to admit our own mistakes.

rossid
06-21-2008, 02:11 AM
So who got all this stolen oil? Now companies are talking about working with Iraq regarding oil. So you probably think this was the intent all along. It is the appropriate time to go ahead and deceive the world again under the guise of helping the Iraqi economy?

Jesuslove
06-21-2008, 02:51 AM
So who got all this stolen oil? Now companies are talking about working with Iraq regarding oil. So you probably think this was the intent all along. It is the appropriate time to go ahead and deceive the world again under the guise of helping the Iraqi economy?

No, I've said before I don't think it was alll about oil, though oil did factor into the equation.

Evanescence
06-21-2008, 04:07 AM
Let's look at a few things are review:

1. Gas has tripled since 2001

2. Experts around the globe agree Peak Oil is a reality and we're near it..or have surpassed it. I can name 4-6 countries who report their Prod is way down from last year...same amount of work- less oil.

3. Cheney was a BIG player in the 90s in oil and business- Haliburton CEO. He would have had an inside scoop on peak oil way back in the early 90s

4. PNAC was a very dangerous Neo-con Rep think-tank with radical ideas of the US taking over the Middle East and securing the oil for future use. Its right in their charter statement- Rebuilding America's Defenses. Almost every key player in PNAC is now in this Admin.

5. There's a documented 300 PLUS Billion barrels of Oil in Iraq.

Please, Please tell me its NOT about oil....

What on earth would it be about? Liberating the Iraqi people?

Are we going to continue to ignore the obvious? POWER was a factor...but OIL was the main goal. And we have it....and it will make its way here....eventually.

Howlin' Wolf
06-21-2008, 03:36 PM
E, youre a smart guy. Most here dont appreciate you. I sure do.

Evanescence
06-21-2008, 04:54 PM
Its not smarts..its simple research...common sense and honesty...

Howlin' Wolf
06-21-2008, 07:18 PM
Its not smarts..its simple research...common sense and honesty...

which is smarts. you cant be smart and closed minded. I am only dogmatic about the beliefs that I used to believe the antithesis of.

rossid
06-22-2008, 05:55 AM
Peak oil production is subjective - http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,369926,00.html - and more can be produced.

Evanescence
06-22-2008, 02:01 PM
Fox news? Please...can we find a more independent source? Might as well have it come right fom the oil companies?

I'll read it though......

Jesuslove
06-23-2008, 11:20 AM
Fox news? Please...can we find a more independent source? Might as well have it come right fom the oil companies?

I'll read it though......

Thanks Ev. I read this and didn't want to say it. But I echo your thoughts.

You know Ev, I have been wondering why the Democrats have not pursued GWB for war crimes. The only thing I can figure out is that the Dems are waiting for Obama to be elected so that we have a Dem President, a Dem House and a Dem Senate. Then maybe, they will do the right thing.

Funny Ev, 4 years ago I was on this site talking about GWB and the mistake known as the Iraqi war. I was blasted by so many people. Four years later, and America's opinion of GWB has changed drastically. As if the war isn't bad enough, America is dealing with a struggling economy, ever increasing fuel costs, a mortgage crisis, the Plame outing and so much more. I'm glad America has had an awakening.