Supreme Court rules Gitmo detainees have rights...

[Evanescence]

Just came across the news...

Court says Gitmo terror suspects ahve rights...

I agree with this ruling...

[Howlin' Wolf]

nothing will change there.

I just watched an excellent documentary called "The Ghosts of Abu Gharaib". Their methods and tactics came directly from General Miller, who was in charge of Gitmo.

[Jason]

I wonder how much Gitmo changed after Miller left.

[Howlin' Wolf]

I wonder how much Gitmo changed after Miller left.

probably not at all. General Miller received a medal and a promotion for his work there and in the Iraqi prisons.

[Jason]

probably not at all. General Miller received a medal and a promotion for his work there and in the Iraqi prisons.

Did you see Frontline's The Torture Question? You can view it online or read the transcript if you haven't.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Did you see Frontline's The Torture Question? You can view it online or read the transcript if you haven't.

I have not seen it.

[Jason]

I have not seen it.

It's good and follows the whole Gitmo/Abu Ghraib saga. I had to watch it for my justice class.

[Pouye]

Just came across the news...

Court says Gitmo terror suspects ahve rights...

I agree with this ruling...

Too bad none of our POW's have rights in the Middle East. Rights are bestowed on by the captors (or the captor's host country). I guess they have the "right" to die or be tortured...

There are no "inherent" rights in war, anyway. Any "rights" given are given out of the mercy of the sovereign nation who gives those rights, not because there is an international body that is sovereign over the nations.

Rock

[Howlin' Wolf]

Too bad none of our POW's have rights in the Middle East. Rights are bestowed on by the captors (or the captor's host country). I guess they have the "right" to die or be tortured...

There are no "inherent" rights in war, anyway. Any "rights" given are given out of the mercy of the sovereign nation who gives those rights, not because there is an international body that is sovereign over the nations.

Rock

Most of these guys arent prisoners of war. and Rock, arent we supposed to be the standard by which all countries should govern themselves? or should we torture and kill our POWs b/c ours were killed?

[Les_Is_More]

Most of these guys arent prisoners of war. and Rock, arent we supposed to be the standard by which all countries should govern themselves? or should we torture and kill our POWs b/c ours were killed?

When radical Islam is targeting "Christian" nations(America, Israel), then I would say we are at war. I'm not happy about the ruling. Constitutional rights for prisoners of war(or from another nation, depending on your views)! Since when does our government follow the constitution!!! :rolleyes: It's just not right.

I tell you, I think law breakers(illegal immigrants and terrorists) get better treatment in the US than it's own citizens. :P

[Evanescence]

Les...both issues in your last post aren't apples and oranges...

[blacksheep]

Most of these guys arent prisoners of war. and Rock, arent we supposed to be the standard by which all countries should govern themselves? or should we torture and kill our POWs b/c ours were killed?

That depends on the definition of POW. The reason they are not considered POWs is because while they were captured in a war theatre in battle with opposition forces (U.S.) they were not wearing uniforms and did not have an allegiance to any specific commander or governmental leader and are not part of a formal military, least ways that can be proven on paper. In previous wars, these people would have been executed on the spot or tried as spies and then executed. We treat our prisoners rather well and bend over backwards to accommodate them.

[Pouye]

Most of these guys arent prisoners of war. and Rock, arent we supposed to be the standard by which all countries should govern themselves? or should we torture and kill our POWs b/c ours were killed?

They are prisoners of war, captured during the "War on Terror". We don't just put people in prison for no reason. Some of them are considered very dangerous, but we are holding them without "complete" proof. I know that sounds wrong, but it is a catch 22. And no, the USA is not supposed to be the standard. Switzerland is. ;)

Rock

[lilmikey]

They are prisoners of war, captured during the "War on Terror". We don't just put people in prison for no reason. Some of them are considered very dangerous, but we are holding them without "complete" proof. I know that sounds wrong, but it is a catch 22. And no, the USA is not supposed to be the standard. Switzerland is. ;)

Rock

thats a given 1,000's of others are held without complete proof in our own American justice system of our own country.

My brother for instance got 25 to life on false rape charges. There is really no proof that he did do it because him and that........thing had concensual sex as she was his girlfriend anyway back on the subject.

I dont buy this crap that some people in GITMO are innocent(ok maybe a few) but like you said they dont just put people in a POW camp for no reason.

[Evanescence]

The "war on terror" is as fabricated as the Iraq war....in fact, the phrase was coined by Philip Zelikow in one of his papers he wrote before 911. Zelikow was also the man behind the 911 Ommission.

The entire thing is a scare tactic to bring us closer to a Global Govt and take the madmen in Washington to their ideals. The oil in the Middle East.

Give everyone a fair trial...even Bush and Cheney...but split ipne the insides of Washington ande let all the filth fall out of its innerds. Then find out who did what and have more trials...

I for one can't wait to see Bush and Cheney in their orange jumpsuits on the CNN trials...I'll take a few days off. :cool:

[lilmikey]

The "war on terror" is as fabricated as the Iraq war....in fact, the phrase was coined by Philip Zelikow in one of his papers he wrote before 911. Zelikow was also the man behind the 911 Ommission.

The entire thing is a scare tactic to bring us closer to a Global Govt and take the madmen in Washington to their ideals. The oil in the Middle East.

Give everyone a fair trial...even Bush and Cheney...but split ipne the insides of Washington ande let all the filth fall out of its innerds. Then find out who did what and have more trials...

I for one can't wait to see Bush and Cheney in their orange jumpsuits on the CNN trials...I'll take a few days off. :cool:

What would you have us do if we are attacked again. Sit back and let those terrorist monsters trample all over our county? After all thats what Hillery and Obama would do the godless cowards that they are

[Evanescence]

Iraq had NOTHING to do with 911....

We can PROVE this....

So, first off...we need someone in office who will NOT take advantage of a tragedy and lead us to war...unless it is a direct threat and/or in retaliation for a DIRECT attack.

Bush in-directly blamed 911 on Saddam and used fear and control tactics to get us into Iraq. This is a common theme among Govts...they used it in Vietnam with Communism and even during the Cold War with Communism....

And for what?

To build up arms and make money....

We were duped...plain and simple...and can prove it. It has ntohing to do with Reps and Dems or Rights and Lefts...I'm neither. It has to do with what is right...fair and honest.

Pu the detainees on trial and put the crook politiicans in Washington on trial...a FAIR trial...then make their punishment fit their crimes. Open up the coffers and lets see whats inside....

Then, we'll be talking...

[Pouye]

That depends on the definition of POW. The reason they are not considered POWs is because while they were captured in a war theatre in battle with opposition forces (U.S.) they were not wearing uniforms and did not have an allegiance to any specific commander or governmental leader and are not part of a formal military, least ways that can be proven on paper. In previous wars, these people would have been executed on the spot or tried as spies and then executed. We treat our prisoners rather well and bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Agreed. Terrorist don't fit the usual mold well. They aren't actual military, but they are fighting for a cause like one. They are more like a militia, but even then they are often from different countries as far as their citizenship is concerned. They aren't even loyal to a certain country, but rather to their "call to jihad".

I realise that the "War on Terror" and the Iraqi "liberation" were two different things. Not many of the "POW's" were even Iraqi citizens, anyway. If they were Iraqi military, they would be in uniform and be "real" POW's. Many of those detained right now are part of the "insurgency", and some of them cannot be released back into their own respective countries because "officially" their home countries don't want them back.

Rock

[blacksheep]

Some of them cannot be released back into their own respective countries because "officially" their home countries don't want them back.

Rock

Yes, a very important point.

[Howlin' Wolf]

When radical Islam is targeting "Christian" nations(America, Israel), then I would say we are at war. I'm not happy about the ruling. Constitutional rights for prisoners of war(or from another nation, depending on your views)! Since when does our government follow the constitution!!! :rolleyes: It's just not right.

I tell you, I think law breakers(illegal immigrants and terrorists) get better treatment in the US than it's own citizens. :P

1. Israel is not a christian nation. America is not a christian nation. Radical Islam hates the west because the west funds the Israeli government.


That depends on the definition of POW. The reason they are not considered POWs is because while they were captured in a war theatre in battle with opposition forces (U.S.) they were not wearing uniforms and did not have an allegiance to any specific commander or governmental leader and are not part of a formal military, least ways that can be proven on paper. In previous wars, these people would have been executed on the spot or tried as spies and then executed. We treat our prisoners rather well and bend over backwards to accommodate them.

thats funny you say that. I dont think the 75-80% of the innocent Iraqis jailed at Abu Gharaib would agree with you. Did you know that in Iraqi prisons, the military arrests women and children? That because the nature of the resistance in Iraq doesnt lend itself to a typical style of soldier, that the military will arrest entire families and torture the men into a confession!?!

and seeing that Rumsfield sent General Miller to Iraq to incorporte his brutal torture methods in the military prisons, I would say that Abu Gharaib was the norm.

This Nazi administration of ours has completely ignored the constitution, the geneva convention, and UN laws.

[Pouye]

1. Israel is not a christian nation. America is not a christian nation. Radical Islam hates the west because the west funds the Israeli government.


True!



thats funny you say that. I dont think the 75-80% of the innocent Iraqis jailed at Abu Gharaib would agree with you. Did you know that in Iraqi prisons, the military arrests women and children? That because the nature of the resistance in Iraq doesnt lend itself to a typical style of soldier, that the military will arrest entire families and torture the men into a confession!?!


Same ol' thing that happens in any civil war, in any country.


and seeing that Rumsfield sent General Miller to Iraq to incorporate his brutal torture methods in the military prisons, I would say that Abu Gharaib was the norm.


Could be, we don't know.


This Nazi administration of ours has completely ignored the constitution, the geneva convention, and UN laws.

The US constitution doesn't apply. The Geneva convention and UN laws are completely ignored by both the Arab nations that are all stirred up, and the insurgency that wants the West out of there so they can try to kick butt in their civil war against each other (Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds).

I'm not saying the USA is doing the right thing, but when nobody else is playing by the rules, then it doesn't do much good to play by them yourself.

Rock

[Evanescence]

The US constitution doesn't apply. The Geneva convention and UN laws are completely ignored by both the Arab nations that are all stirred up, and the insurgency that wants the West out of there so they can try to kick butt in their civil war against each other (Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds).

I'm not saying the USA is doing the right thing, but when nobody else is playing by the rules, then it doesn't do much good to play by them yourself.



You mean like lying for war....when all the while you're going to steal their 300billion barrels of oil?

Yep, not playing by the rules....

[Valpo]

Can't cry about Constitution violations and International "laws" at the same time. Can't have it both ways. But funny how international laws only apply to the US and not to anyone else. Especially a Saddam Hussein character who thumbed his nose and violated UN agreement after UN agreement prior to being ousted.

BTW, I talk to people on the ground in Iraq. Situation since the surge has gotten a lot better. Death triangle safety is up 85%. I even hear reports Shiites and Sunni's are beginning to refer to themselves as Iraqi's and not just based upon their sect of Islam. This is good news indeed. But you wouldn't read about that on a conspiracy website/documentary or our media. "If it bleeds it leads." Iraq is not a major newspaper story anymore, because a lot of the bleeding has stopped.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Can't cry about Constitution violations and International "laws" at the same time. Can't have it both ways. But funny how international laws only apply to the US and not to anyone else. Especially a Saddam Hussein character who thumbed his nose and violated UN agreement after UN agreement prior to being ousted.
.

Israel has violated more international laws than Iraq.

[Les_Is_More]

1. Israel is not a christian nation. America is not a christian nation. Radical Islam hates the west because the west funds the Israeli government.

Did you notice the quotation marks around the word Christian? I didn't think so. ;)

[Pouye]

Israel has violated more international laws than Iraq.

And if they didn't, there is a good chance they would be blasted out of existence... you sound like that would be a good thing -- and besides, who is counting? The list for both sides is huge. Do you think Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign nation, or are you for blasting them off the planet, too?

Rock

[lilmikey]

And if they didn't, there is a good chance they would be blasted out of existence... you sound like that would be a good thing -- and besides, who is counting? The list for both sides is huge. Do you think Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign nation, or are you for blasting them off the planet, too?

Rock

Israel can never be blasted off the map they were and still are God's chosen people

[Howlin' Wolf]

Israel can never be blasted off the map they were and still are God's chosen people


so what are you?

And if they didn't, there is a good chance they would be blasted out of existence... you sound like that would be a good thing -- and besides, who is counting? The list for both sides is huge. Do you think Israel has the right to exist as a sovereign nation, or are you for blasting them off the planet, too?

when you use terror to control your land, expect to defend it from terror.

[blacksheep]

so what are you?



when you use terror to control your land, expect to defend it from terror.

Isreal's stance has been primarily defensive. Why do you know so much about Abu G?

[blacksheep]

1. Israel is not a christian nation. America is not a christian nation. Radical Islam hates the west because the west funds the Israeli government.




thats funny you say that. I dont think the 75-80% of the innocent Iraqis jailed at Abu Gharaib would agree with you. Did you know that in Iraqi prisons, the military arrests women and children? That because the nature of the resistance in Iraq doesnt lend itself to a typical style of soldier, that the military will arrest entire families and torture the men into a confession!?!

and seeing that Rumsfield sent General Miller to Iraq to incorporte his brutal torture methods in the military prisons, I would say that Abu Gharaib was the norm.

This Nazi administration of ours has completely ignored the constitution, the geneva convention, and UN laws.

Our consitition does not legally apply to Iraqi citizens. There is only so much we can do about how the Iraqis treat Iraqis, but believe me, it doesn't always just slide. So you think you know a little something about Abu G, and then becuase you think that you know something, you claim that the rest of the system works like that, all the while mixing U.S. practices and Iraqi practices. Were does torture begin and a good interrogation end? Were does just punishment end and cruel and unusual punishment begin? You seem like a pretty black and white person for someone who supports the likes of Hezbollah. I imagine that you would have to look the other direction in quite a few instances.

[Mr.Supervious]

right...they aren't even American citizens and you give them more rights then convicts in America do...this is rediculous...right now those terrorists would wanna kill you and you want to defend them...absurd...

[blacksheep]

right...they aren't even American citizens and you give them more rights then convicts in America do...this is rediculous...right now those terrorists would wanna kill you and you want to defend them...absurd...


Well, while I don't think you are wrong, I'll try to stay away from "right wing"
platitudes, much of which I came close to in my last post. Tulip claims to have much experience in the region and therefore should be given stage to develop his thesis. Like any good Calvinist I should expect his next few points to be clear and concise. I am eager to chat with anyone who has spent time in the deserts of North Africa and Asia. A travelled soul may add much to the other side of the converstation.

[Howlin' Wolf]

Isreal's stance has been primarily defensive. Why do you know so much about Abu G?
a simple look at zionist history will show you that Israel's stance has rarely been defensive.

http://www.ghostsofabughraib.org/film.htm

Our consitition does not legally apply to Iraqi citizens. There is only so much we can do about how the Iraqis treat Iraqis, but believe me, it doesn't always just slide. So you think you know a little something about Abu G, and then becuase you think that you know something, you claim that the rest of the system works like that, all the while mixing U.S. practices and Iraqi practices. Were does torture begin and a good interrogation end? Were does just punishment end and cruel and unusual punishment begin? You seem like a pretty black and white person for someone who supports the likes of Hezbollah. I imagine that you would have to look the other direction in quite a few instances.

what is occuring in Iraqi prisons is not abuse at the hands of Iraqi prison guards. What I do know, and what is declassified information, is that Rumsfield greenlighted Gen. Miller's torture techniques and then sent him into Iraq to apply those methods in Iraqi prisons. unjust punishment is a refusal to offer due process, humiliation, degradation, and constant psychological abuse. Unjust torture methods are stripping men naked, beating them, and then piling them on top of each other. They even tortured little boys in abu Gharaib!

right...they aren't even American citizens and you give them more rights then convicts in America do...this is rediculous...right now those terrorists would wanna kill you and you want to defend them...absurd...

you do realize that detainees do not have televisions and dont work out all day, dont you?

and if Hamas and Hezbollah wanted to kill me, they would have. Instead they gave me coffee and biscuits.

[Evanescence]

a simple look at zionist history will show you that Israel's stance has rarely been defensive.

http://www.ghostsofabughraib.org/film.htm



what is occuring in Iraqi prisons is not abuse at the hands of Iraqi prison guards. What I do know, and what is declassified information, is that Rumsfield greenlighted Gen. Miller's torture techniques and then sent him into Iraq to apply those methods in Iraqi prisons. unjust punishment is a refusal to offer due process, humiliation, degradation, and constant psychological abuse. Unjust torture methods are stripping men naked, beating them, and then piling them on top of each other. They even tortured little boys in abu Gharaib!



you do realize that detainees do not have televisions and dont work out all day, dont you?

and if Hamas and Hezbollah wanted to kill me, they would have. Instead they gave me coffee and biscuits.

Tulip, maybe they were afraid of you.... :P

[Mr.Supervious]

you do realize that detainees do not have televisions and dont work out all day, dont you?

and if Hamas and Hezbollah wanted to kill me, they would have. Instead they gave me coffee and biscuits.


like Rush says...get a free prayer rug and koran at Club Gitmo!

[bridges]

Hello Everyone!

I hope this isn't too far off topic.... I have had something on my heart for a few days, and this seems to be an appropriate place to post it.

First of all, permit me to state unequivocally that it is impossible for a murderer to be a martyr. A martyr, by definition (my definition at least), is someone who dies for a GOOD cause, and in dying, saves others. A man who receives the death penalty for plotting the premeditated murders of several thousand people cannot be a martyr. He is a murderer receiving his punishment, nothing more, completely unworthy of any concern or regard in his death, which, if indicated by law, should be performed as quickly and with as little fanfare as possible.

Second, I would also like to say that "Mastermind" is not an appropriate word to describe such an individual. Anyone who plots the murders of thousands of innocent people who have done him no harm is not a "Mastermind", he is a lunatick with a mind that is by no stretch of the imagination masterful.

This from recent headlines:

"GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the reputed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, told a military judge at his arraignment Thursday that he welcomes the death penalty as a way to martyrdom and ridiculed the proceedings as an "inquisition."

"In his first public appearance since his capture five years ago, Mohammed wore dark-framed prison-issue glasses, a turban and a bushy, gray beard, and was noticeably thinner — a stark change from the slovenly man with disheveled hair, unshaven face and T-shirt from the widely distributed photograph after his capture in Pakistan.

"He and four other detainees accused of plotting al-Qaida's 2001 attack were at turns cordial and defiant at their arraignment, the first U.S. attempt to try in court those believed to be directly responsible for killing 2,973 people in the bloodiest terrorist attack ever on U.S. soil. All five said they did not want attorneys and would represent themselves."

It would be a good thing if all journalists were careful to use appropriate words to report the news. After witnessing the incredible audacity of Saddam Hussein and his brother in court, it doesn't surprise me that this murderer would attempt to depict himself as a victim. If one plots a mass murder, should not one expect to be punished?

I am a Christian. I would die to save others, like the man who said, "Let's roll." THAT man was a martyr.

Radical Muslim terrorists would die to kill others, and DO die to kill others. It is not appropriate to glorify their murderous and self destructive demonically orchestrated performances by calling them martyrs, and in fact I find it extremely offensive and a hubris-like act on the part of those criminals to try to be called martyrs. I say this with a complete absence of malice, motivated only by what I truly believe is RIGHT. While I would not kill or unjustly harm such a criminal by acting outside the boundaries of due legal process, I do wholeheartedly approve of punishing such a man. I will not rejoice when he is put to death, but I do expect to feel closure and relief.

There will come a time very soon when we all will look narrowly upon the devil and say, "Is THIS the guy that made the earth tremble, shook entire kingdoms, devastated the world, destroyed cities, and held millions of souls captive in his dire grip? Wow, he doesn't look like much...." (see Isaiah 14:16-17). I am almost 50 years old. I remember vividly being only a child. Time passes very quickly. SOON, VERY SOON, I will see the devil go over the rim into that lake of fire, and I will know that he is not coming back. Shall I feel remorse or pity for him? I really think not. Will HE be a martyr? That's about a stupid question. No, he won't. He'll just be a no good devil who couldn't even live for God when he was already IN heaven.

The world is what we make it, all of us, together. Some people choose to HATE, and they make the world WORSE. Some people choose to LOVE, and they make the world BETTER. Put it all together and you get what we've got: a world full of the entire spectrum of human possibility from the most corrupt to the purest. To me, this Khalil Sheikh Mohammed and other haters like him represent the worst possible corrupted minds (NOT "master" minds, God forbid!), vicious, hateful, scheming mass murderers who don't even take the time and make the effort to know their victims beyond what little knowledge it took to most effectively bring about death and destruction. Any idiot can kill, steal, and destroy. It takes a TRUE Mastermind to build, heal, nurture, protect, bless, give, save, help, and edify.

Y'all have a great week! I'm going to bed now. God only knows when I'll post here again. I'm copying this and pasting it to my blog on MySpace (I'm there every day).

God bless Mikee and Tulip and E and all of you; I miss you a lot from time to time, and I just had to come by and see what was going on at ThirdDayDotCom.

Peace!

[blacksheep]

a simple look at zionist history will show you that Israel's stance has rarely been defensive.

http://www.ghostsofabughraib.org/film.htm



what is occuring in Iraqi prisons is not abuse at the hands of Iraqi prison guards. What I do know, and what is declassified information, is that Rumsfield greenlighted Gen. Miller's torture techniques and then sent him into Iraq to apply those methods in Iraqi prisons. unjust punishment is a refusal to offer due process, humiliation, degradation, and constant psychological abuse. Unjust torture methods are stripping men naked, beating them, and then piling them on top of each other. They even tortured little boys in abu Gharaib!



you do realize that detainees do not have televisions and dont work out all day, dont you?

and if Hamas and Hezbollah wanted to kill me, they would have. Instead they gave me coffee and biscuits.


This is rubish! Have you been inside a U.S. detention facility in Iraq? Have you been inside an Iraqi prison facility in Iraq? Abu G was the exception to the rule and was the fault of the people there on the ground. There are inspection teams as we speak touring every detention facility in Iraq on a regular basis ensuring that things like Abu G aren't taking place and won't take place again. While under U.S. control, detainees earn a specific amount of money each day (just above the national job holders average) to be paid out upon their release. A LOT of them are released after they have been properly vetted and that not done by any form of torture.

By the by, prisoners in most facilities are more than welcome to do as many push ups, sit ups, and as much jogging in place as they can handle while they are there.

I'm sure the gave you coffee and biscuits. They are not animals. Have you tried to convert any of them?

[Howlin' Wolf]

This is rubish! Have you been inside a U.S. detention facility in Iraq? Have you been inside an Iraqi prison facility in Iraq? Abu G was the exception to the rule and was the fault of the people there on the ground. There are inspection teams as we speak touring every detention facility in Iraq on a regular basis ensuring that things like Abu G aren't taking place and won't take place again. While under U.S. control, detainees earn a specific amount of money each day (just above the national job holders average) to be paid out upon their release. A LOT of them are released after they have been properly vetted and that not done by any form of torture.

By the by, prisoners in most facilities are more than welcome to do as many push ups, sit ups, and as much jogging in place as they can handle while they are there.

I'm sure the gave you coffee and biscuits. They are not animals. Have you tried to convert any of them?

is it rubish? Have you been in any detention facilities or are you just reciting what Fox news has told you?

i'm not in the business of "converting" people.

[blacksheep]

is it rubish? Have you been in any detention facilities or are you just reciting what Fox news has told you?


I have and I don't have access to Fox News except for the internet and I prefer CNN's setup.

[Mr.Supervious]

is it rubish? Have you been in any detention facilities or are you just reciting what Fox news has told you?

i'm not in the business of "converting" people.


why are you not in the business of converting people?!?!!? isn't that breaking Jesus' commandment?

[Pouye]

why are you not in the business of converting people?!?!!? isn't that breaking Jesus' commandment?

I think he means in a forceful way. Muslims do use force to convert people, especially someone who was "born" a Muslim and then rejects Islam. They often torture such people, and sometimes they kill them as apostates. There were also times in history when Christians (at least by name) did the same thing (even though this is expressly condemned in the Bible to do so) -- both Catholics and Protestants.

Christianity is unique in that one must be "born again" to be a Christian. It doesn't matter if you were raised in a Christian environment or have participated in church all of your life. Without that divinely mysterious transaction, a person is dead in their sins, and not "saved". Conversions cannot be forced by human beings, but must happen by the choice of the individual to put their faith in God:

"[The jailer] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” "
Acts 16:31-

The choice to make Jesus Christ your Master/Lord/King is the choice that people need to make to be born again. Of course, God draws and accomplishes this work -- for nobody saves themselves by themselves, but only by the power of the Holy Spirit. How it actually happens (regeneration precedes faith/faith precedes regeneration/happens simultaneously) is fun to debate but really doesn't change what actually happens -- the person becomes a new creation in Christ when they believe in Jesus.

Anyway, I think Tulip5points was trying to say that he can't "convert" anyone anyway. We Christians are to live our lives in such a way that our lives lead others to Christ (in speech and action), and the Holy Spirit has to do the rest (the part that is impossible for us to do -- convert someone to Christianity).

Rock

[Mr.Supervious]

oh ok...i just misinterpreted(spel?) what tulip had said...sorry!

[Howlin' Wolf]

why are you not in the business of converting people?!?!!? isn't that breaking Jesus' commandment?


re-read the commandment.

my job is to make disciples. disciples are students. students are willing and wanting to learn.

[lilmikey]

re-read the commandment.

my job is to make disciples. disciples are students. students are willing and wanting to learn.

I agree we are out to minister not convert. God does the work of conversion in someones life cause with out him they cant convert.

[Mr.Supervious]

re-read the commandment.

my job is to make disciples. disciples are students. students are willing and wanting to learn.

i know what the commandment says and i know what you say is true..like i had stated i had misread what you had said...and am sorry...