Restaurant Smoking bans and loud noises

[mat1583]

Since the other thread was closed by the opener during what I would consider a very civil conversation, I'm continuing that conversation here - right where I left off. If it gets out of hand, I would hope someone would let me know. Here is the previous thread: http://www.thirdday.com/boards/showthread.php?t=102998&page=3

And here's where we left off:


Public Ferry. Just so you understand.

Rock

You mean it's a government operated/funded ferry?

This is an important question. On government property where the public has right and not just a privilege to enter, then I agree that the public has a right to vote for laws that would restrict the activities that are allowed on the publics' property (ie. state/national parks, city halls, courthouses, government funded public transportation, public schools, etc.)

-washboard

[Pouye]

This is an important question. On government property where the public has right and not just a privilege to enter, then I agree that the public has a right to vote for laws that would restrict the activities that are allowed on the publics' property (ie. state/national parks, city halls, courthouses, government funded public transportation, public schools, etc.)

-washboard

Yes, the ferry was state run (public transportation).

I guess for me, the line of public and private gets blurry sometimes. For instance, you have private businesses, but they are regulated by the government in some ways, too -- meaning that those businesses (if they are registered) still cannot do certain things , offer certain services, products, etc. (for instance, private businesses should not employ illegal immigrants or children under a certain age).

Some people like the idea of private businesses being able to anything they dang well please. I don't. I don't think private businesses should be able to hire 8 year olds for labor purposes, for instance. I don't think private day cares should allow alcohol use or smoking by those running it.

The logic behind the idea that people will simply not buy things/services from such businesses eludes me because I've seen otherwise. If the service is cheap enough, people will compromise and do idiotic things -- like send their small children to a daycare that is run by people who drink and smoke all day long. This is not only horrible for the health of small children (who are often cooped up inside on winter days), but teaches them things they don't need to learn at that young age. I've seen this situation happening personally, so I know what I'm talking about. I even queried one of the parents, and she said, "I know it isn't ideal, but it is very affordable." Who suffers? Not the ditsy girl, but rather her two-year-old twin boys.

In fact, it seems like in many of these situations it is the children or minorities who suffer the most.

Yes, there are lots of dumb people in this world who are willing to jeopardise others to make a buck. If everyone had common sense, we wouldn't need regulations and laws. But alas, idiots abound, and therefor the law books are full.

I'm not saying that the government has to be the one to regulate everything and even to enforce certain things. But I've seen too many situations that are unjust or harmful when they are not regulated by SOMEONE other than private persons who do not care about anything buy the bottom line.

Rock

[maui sista]

Funny you should bring this up now...tonight I was working(starbucks) and this man came to me while I was making a drink and he raised his voice and said "I have rights! and you are abusing them by not telling the people(2 ladies outside smoking about 10 feet from the door and the "law" is 20 feet from any public entrance) to walk another 10 feet away"

Well usually i would have been really sweet but I had worked a long day and I don't respond well to being squawked at by a dude that is NOT sitting outside in the first place... so I said.."you go tell them if its bugs you that bad, I am busy making coffee"

It is posted everywhere but I don't have the time to go yell at everyone(Starbucks is busy as we all know)...I like the new law but it's kind of hard to enforce.

I don't feel like it's my "job" to enforce it at all...

Sonja

[ausgirl]

Link is not working...

[mat1583]

Link is not working...

Apparently the thread starter did not like civil, healthy discussion and instead of just closing, deleted it altogether.

-washboard

[mat1583]

Yes, the ferry was state run (public transportation).

I guess for me, the line of public and private gets blurry sometimes. For instance, you have private businesses, but they are regulated by the government in some ways, too -- meaning that those businesses (if they are registered) still cannot do certain things , offer certain services, products, etc. (for instance, private businesses should not employ illegal immigrants or children under a certain age).

Some people like the idea of private businesses being able to anything they dang well please. I don't. I don't think private businesses should be able to hire 8 year olds for labor purposes, for instance. I don't think private day cares should allow alcohol use or smoking by those running it.

The logic behind the idea that people will simply not buy things/services from such businesses eludes me because I've seen otherwise. If the service is cheap enough, people will compromise and do idiotic things -- like send their small children to a daycare that is run by people who drink and smoke all day long. This is not only horrible for the health of small children (who are often cooped up inside on winter days), but teaches them things they don't need to learn at that young age. I've seen this situation happening personally, so I know what I'm talking about. I even queried one of the parents, and she said, "I know it isn't ideal, but it is very affordable." Who suffers? Not the ditsy girl, but rather her two-year-old twin boys.

In fact, it seems like in many of these situations it is the children or minorities who suffer the most.

Yes, there are lots of dumb people in this world who are willing to jeopardise others to make a buck. If everyone had common sense, we wouldn't need regulations and laws. But alas, idiots abound, and therefor the law books are full.

I'm not saying that the government has to be the one to regulate everything and even to enforce certain things. But I've seen too many situations that are unjust or harmful when they are not regulated by SOMEONE other than private persons who do not care about anything buy the bottom line.

Rock

I have an answer, but it will have to wait till later today or tomorrow. Just wanted to let you know I didn't forget :)

-washboard

[mat1583]

Yes, the ferry was state run (public transportation).

Then public transportation is a completely different realm. I'm fine with enforcing rules on public transportation. What about a private charter bus that offers rides for smoking passengers. Should they be allowed to offer "smoking rides"? What about motels/hotels that offer smoking rooms? When you get a hotel room, do you choose a smoking room or non-smoking?


I guess for me, the line of public and private gets blurry sometimes. For instance, you have private businesses, but they are regulated by the government in some ways, too -- meaning that those businesses (if they are registered) still cannot do certain things , offer certain services, products, etc. (for instance, private businesses should not employ illegal immigrants or children under a certain age).

Some people like the idea of private businesses being able to anything they dang well please. I don't. I don't think private businesses should be able to hire 8 year olds for labor purposes, for instance. I don't think private day cares should allow alcohol use or smoking by those running it.

I happen to think child labor laws should be repealed. Heck, I mowed lawns for money since I was about 12 years old. I also helped fix computers before I was 14...for money. All of this, of course, was basically on the black market and "illegal". Fortunately, it instilled in me a strong work ethic at an early age which helped me secure a 'real' job when I turned 15.

Here's a great article about why Child Labor laws should be repealed and the myths that people spread about the horrors of child labor: http://tinyurl.com/yvb37u


The logic behind the idea that people will simply not buy things/services from such businesses eludes me because I've seen otherwise. If the service is cheap enough, people will compromise and do idiotic things -- like send their small children to a daycare that is run by people who drink and smoke all day long. This is not only horrible for the health of small children (who are often cooped up inside on winter days), but teaches them things they don't need to learn at that young age. I've seen this situation happening personally, so I know what I'm talking about. I even queried one of the parents, and she said, "I know it isn't ideal, but it is very affordable." Who suffers? Not the ditsy girl, but rather her two-year-old twin boys.

If you are subjecting a child to a harmful situation in which they cannot control, then of course it's wrong. You are infringing on their liberties as a human being by forcing them into these places. Once again, this is a Libertarian notion.



Yes, there are lots of dumb people in this world who are willing to jeopardise others to make a buck. If everyone had common sense, we wouldn't need regulations and laws. But alas, idiots abound, and therefor the law books are full.

I'm not saying that the government has to be the one to regulate everything and even to enforce certain things. But I've seen too many situations that are unjust or harmful when they are not regulated by SOMEONE other than private persons who do not care about anything buy the bottom line.

Rock
The problem is that when you enact laws to protect people who make bad decisions, you don't help them at all. You make them worse off by relegating responsibility to the government bureaucrats and tax-payers. This is the main reason that the welfare system has greatly failed our society, and I also believe the reason that our churches haven't quite stepped to the forefront in helping these same people. It is the reason that illegal immigration is such a problem.

What happens when you remove responsibility from the citizens to make a living, pay for education and health care? You create a sect of society that leeches off of all these 'free' services...and to whose cost? The taxpayers. And when society gets used to these laws and irresponsibility, they demand more of it. Just look at what has happened in New York. People are becoming so obese, lazy, and irresponsible that they have enacted laws to bans trans-fatty acids. They can't make decisions for themselves anymore! It's sickening, and it's stealing liberty from the people.

-washboard

[teclils]

Funny you should bring this up now...tonight I was working(starbucks) and this man came to me while I was making a drink and he raised his voice and said "I have rights! and you are abusing them by not telling the people(2 ladies outside smoking about 10 feet from the door and the "law" is 20 feet from any public entrance) to walk another 10 feet away"

Well usually i would have been really sweet but I had worked a long day and I don't respond well to being squawked at by a dude that is NOT sitting outside in the first place... so I said.."you go tell them if its bugs you that bad, I am busy making coffee"

It is posted everywhere but I don't have the time to go yell at everyone(Starbucks is busy as we all know)...I like the new law but it's kind of hard to enforce.

I don't feel like it's my "job" to enforce it at all...

Sonja

some people take that "I have rights" thing to the hilt....

I worked for TSA at the airport and I heard the same thing over and over...I don't get people it is for their protection ...one older lady said to me " I am no terrorist I am just an old lady" so I said "do you know what a terrorist looks like?" she said "no" I said "neither do we" ...they want to be protected but don't want to take the steps to get that protection...

[Pouye]

Then public transportation is a completely different realm. I'm fine with enforcing rules on public transportation. What about a private charter bus that offers rides for smoking passengers. Should they be allowed to offer "smoking rides"? What about motels/hotels that offer smoking rooms? When you get a hotel room, do you choose a smoking room or non-smoking?


I think they should only be allowed to offer "smoking rides" if the driver is a smoker, and/or he/she agrees to the arrangement, being fully warned of the health risks involved. Then I have no problem. But I don't think the driver (if the driver is an employee or even a volunteer of this private bus line) should have to choose to either be subject to second-hand smoke or quite their job.


I happen to think child labor laws should be repealed. Heck, I mowed lawns for money since I was about 12 years old. I also helped fix computers before I was 14...for money. All of this, of course, was basically on the black market and "illegal". Fortunately, it instilled in me a strong work ethic at an early age which helped me secure a 'real' job when I turned 15.


I'm not talking about what you were doing. I'm talking about allowing private businesses to employ young children full time (during their educational years) and year round. Summer jobs, after school jobs, etc. are fine.


Here's a great article about why Child Labor laws should be repealed and the myths that people spread about the horrors of child labor: http://tinyurl.com/yvb37u

One thing I know is NOT a myth -- and that is some countries employ young children in factories at the expense of their health and education. I don't what that to happen in the USA.

[QUOTE=mat1583]
If you are subjecting a child to a harmful situation in which they cannot control, then of course it's wrong. You are infringing on their liberties as a human being by forcing them into these places. Once again, this is a Libertarian notion.


Okay, so are their some practical ways to solve this problem? That is the question we should be asking ourselves as a society.


The problem is that when you enact laws to protect people who make bad decisions, you don't help them at all. You make them worse off by relegating responsibility to the government bureaucrats and tax-payers.


I see how this can be connected to welfare, but it wasn't welfare I was addressing. You will find that you and I will think very similarly about welfare.


This is the main reason that the welfare system has greatly failed our society, and I also believe the reason that our churches haven't quite stepped to the forefront in helping these same people. It is the reason that illegal immigration is such a problem.


I agree. I'm not talking about giving handouts. That's a different matter.


What happens when you remove responsibility from the citizens to make a living, pay for education and health care?


Is this happening? How is it happening? Who is "you" in the sentence? I'm just trying to clear things up a little, so things aren't based merely on assumptions or non-reality.


You create a sect of society that leeches off of all these 'free' services...and to whose cost? The taxpayers.


You mean like some European countries?


And when society gets used to these laws and irresponsibility, they demand more of it. Just look at what has happened in New York. People are becoming so obese, lazy, and irresponsible that they have enacted laws to bans trans-fatty acids. They can't make decisions for themselves anymore! It's sickening, and it's stealing liberty from the people.


I agree that it is sickening to steal REAL liberties from the people. But what is defined as liberties? That is what law is all about -- defining what rights and liberties people inherently have, and what rights and liberties people need to earn (called privileges). I don't have the inherent right to dress up like a police officer and carry a weapon on my hip like them. This is called, "impersonating an officer", and has penalties attached to it. But I can earn the right to be a police officer by doing the things required by state law to become one.

There are lots of things that can remain unregulated until being unregulated becomes a major problem. For instance, people used to hunt certain highly valuable (to the market) species of animals to extinction. You would think that being highly valuable that people would realize that hunting them to extinction would be unwise, since once they are all gone they are out of luck, and the market demands cannot be met. However, when greed drives something like that, sometimes people do not stop and think about the consequences of their actions. It sometimes takes a higher authority to stop that sort of thing from happening. I just think about the oil rushes in the history of the USA, and how incredibly damaged the environment became during those times. Some rivers and lakes are still suffering the damages of that time. Lakes and rivers often caught fire (they had so much oil floating on them) and burned for days. Animals (mostly horses) were being used to pull carts full of barrels of oil (mostly wood at that time) that would often overturn and spill. The horses were often worked so hard that they would die on the road -- but with the money being made, fresh horses were being bought to replace them weekly. Oily, muddy trails with dead horses along side them became the norm for years during these days.

Rock

[mat1583]

some people take that "I have rights" thing to the hilt....

I worked for TSA at the airport and I heard the same thing over and over...I don't get people it is for their protection ...one older lady said to me " I am no terrorist I am just an old lady" so I said "do you know what a terrorist looks like?" she said "no" I said "neither do we" ...they want to be protected but don't want to take the steps to get that protection...

I never said I wanted the TSA's protection. I would prefer private security over government hires, and voluntary over mandatory. San Francisco airport's private security has actually proven to do a better job overall than the TSA.

-washboard