Carl Edwards Caught Cheating After Win

[clemsontigers23]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news?slug=jh-edwards030208&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

LAS VEGAS – After the debacle last weekend in California, NASCAR needed a weekend without stepping in it. And for most of Sunday afternoon NASCAR didn't.

The weather cooperated, the crowd bulged inside Las Vegas Motor Speedway for the UAW-Dodge 400 and Dale Earnhardt Jr. challenged for the win.

But then came the Carl Edwards tire incident, which forced NASCAR into making one of its judgment calls. That was followed by the Carl Edwards oil lid incident, which will force it to make another call Tuesday.

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If only Dale Jr. had won, things would be so much easier. But he didn't. Edwards did, and now NASCAR is left to explain a few things.

First, the oil cooler lid incident.

In postrace inspection, NASCAR found the lid in Edwards' oil cooler "off." That's how it was explained. Off.

That means Edwards could have had an advantage. No oil cooler lid means more air, which could mean more speed.

There is a precedent for this. Five cars were found with the same violation following the Nationwide race at Daytona. Each received a 25-point penalty and the respective crew chiefs were suspended for six races and put on probation for the remainder of the season.

The difference here is none of those five cars won the race. Edwards did.

So when NASCAR takes Edwards' car back to its R&D center in North Carolina, what will come of it?

This is where it gets tough for NASCAR.

If it finds something wrong, what will it do?

Well, we know the answer to this question: NASCAR will dock Edwards points, probably 100, suspend his crew chief and levy a fine.

The problem is, any penalty hints that there was some wrongdoing on the part of Edwards' crew. If that's the case, why not yank the win away from him?

Rules are rules, after all, and if you're going to penalize cheating off the track, they need to treat cheating on the track even harsher.

Which brings us to the tire incident.

Fifty-two laps before taking the checkered flag, Edwards came onto pit road to get four fresh tires. As he left his pit stall, one of his old tires wandered across the infield at Las Vegas Motor Speedway, having somehow gotten loose.

Per NASCAR rules, Edwards could have been issued a penalty. But NASCAR determined the errant tire wasn't the fault of Edwards' crew but rather an erroneous cameraman who got in their way.

Instead of penalizing Edwards a lap, NASCAR allowed him to maintain his third-place position – a decision that changed the entire complexion of the race.

NASCAR can – and did – explain away its decision because it has written its rulebook in a fashion that leaves every rule in it open to its own judgment. Case in point, the rules regarding tire changes:

"If in the judgment of NASCAR officials a team made every effort to control a tire and circumstances beyond their control cause the tire to travel across the pit road, a lap or time penalty may not be assessed."

Eleven days ago, NASCAR penalized Robby Gordon 100 points for an unapproved nose on his car. Before NASCAR handed down the penalty, Gordon pled his case, saying he didn't know the nose was an unapproved version, that the wrong part came from the manufacturer and that it had nearly an identical inventory number as the approved nose.

"We're going to jail for a crime we didn't commit," Gordon said.

NASCAR's response: Tough luck.

"Rules are rules," NASCAR's Sprint Cup competition director John Darby said when I rehashed Gordon's explanation to him.

When Darby told me this, I understood, because even though I'm certain Gordon wasn't trying to skirt the law, NASCAR would be opening up a Pandora's box once it allowed one person to play dumb.

But let's spin this forward. From the rule above, take out the word 'tire' and replace it with words befitting Gordon's situation and here's what you get:

"If in the judgment of NASCAR officials a team made every effort to use the correct nose and circumstances beyond their control cause them to use the wrong nose, a penalty may not be assessed."

Why was Edwards allowed to skate but not Gordon?

"You're assuming it was inadvertent," NASCAR spokesman Ramsey Poston said of Gordon's explanation for the unapproved nose.

It's a valid point but one that paints NASCAR into a corner. Because later this week, if it ends up penalizing Edwards for the oil cooler lid incident, the only way NASCAR can legitimately explain not taking away the win is to assume its being off "was inadvertent."

Oh, they were so close to it all being good. If only Junior had won.

Take away the win. That only seems fair.

[Jake]

Well this is just another example of names meaning more to NASCAR than rules. First of all, the tire thing. If Robby Gordon's tire had found itself in the infield, Robby would have been in the pits again. Since it's Carl Edwards/Jack Rousch we're talking about, it HAD to be somebody else's fault.

And as far as the oil lid thing, I say take away some points, but not the win.

[Genna14]

Well being a huge Robby Gordon supporter, I am a bit biased here. But it seems to me like NASCAR is really playing favorites here. It really ticks me off that Robby can't catch a break!

As for the tire incident, if you saw the race you'd know that it was NOT the crew's fault. There was a camera man in the way and it caused them to losee the tire. Its fact, not speculation. As for the oil cap thing, he should be penalized! Its not something you can just say "ohh we forgot!" this is the big leagues, you can't just mess around like that.

I agree though, if it had been Robby's tire, it surely wouldn't have been the cameraman's fault.

[Jake]

Well being a huge Robby Gordon supporter, I am a bit biased here. But it seems to me like NASCAR is really playing favorites here. It really ticks me off that Robby can't catch a break!

As for the tire incident, if you saw the race you'd know that it was NOT the crew's fault. There was a camera man in the way and it caused them to losee the tire. Its fact, not speculation. As for the oil cap thing, he should be penalized! Its not something you can just say "ohh we forgot!" this is the big leagues, you can't just mess around like that.

I agree though, if it had been Robby's tire, it surely wouldn't have been the cameraman's fault.

Well I can't stand Robby or Carl, so I'm totally unbiased on this one.

I saw the tire thing, and firmly believe it was only seen as someone else's fault because of who Jack Rousch is. Go back the past few years; Rousch starts complaining about stuff and NASCAR bends to what he wants.

And I don't disagree that the oil cap thing deserves a penalty, points and a crew chief suspension would be fine. NASCAR doesn't have a history of taking away a win, and doing so over this would be stupid.

[Genna14]

Well I can't stand Robby or Carl, so I'm totally unbiased on this one.

I saw the tire thing, and firmly believe it was only seen as someone else's fault because of who Jack Rousch is. Go back the past few years; Rousch starts complaining about stuff and NASCAR bends to what he wants.

And I don't disagree that the oil cap thing deserves a penalty, points and a crew chief suspension would be fine. NASCAR doesn't have a history of taking away a win, and doing so over this would be stupid.
I like Carl, I just like Robby more! :)

It seems like we're just going around in circles here. I have seen instances, and no I can't think of any off the top of my head, where camera crews have gotten in the way during pit stops. I'm just saying, it seems much more plausible to me that the camera guy got in the way. I don't consider that "cheating" but Lord knows what is going through the official's heads. I just think they ought to look a little deeper into it.

I think taking away his win would be going a bit too far. Who knows what NASCAR's governing body will do next! That's what makes this sport so exciting...*end sarcasm*

[Jake]

I like Carl, I just like Robby more! :)

It seems like we're just going around in circles here. I have seen instances, and no I can't think of any off the top of my head, where camera crews have gotten in the way during pit stops. I'm just saying, it seems much more plausible to me that the camera guy got in the way. I don't consider that "cheating" but Lord knows what is going through the official's heads. I just think they ought to look a little deeper into it.

I think taking away his win would be going a bit too far. Who knows what NASCAR's governing body will do next! That's what makes this sport so exciting...*end sarcasm*

I'm going to concede on the tire thing, because apparently there is a rule on the books that says if the official deems that the miscue on pit road was not teh fault of the crew, they do not have to assess the penalty. Would they have done so if it was someone of "lesser name?" I won't speculate any more.

And I'm glad we agree on taking away the win. Again I say, take points and sit his crew chief out for 4-6 races, but taking away the win is not practical.

[clemsontigers23]

I'm going to concede on the tire thing, because apparently there is a rule on the books that says if the official deems that the miscue on pit road was not teh fault of the crew, they do not have to assess the penalty. Would they have done so if it was someone of "lesser name?" I won't speculate any more.

And I'm glad we agree on taking away the win. Again I say, take points and sit his crew chief out for 4-6 races, but taking away the win is not practical.

If he cheated to get it though, wouldn't it seem fair to take away the win? They do it in track all the time.

[Jake]

If he cheated to get it though, wouldn't it seem fair to take away the win? They do it in track all the time.

This isn't track, and NASCAR doesn't have a history of taking away wins. I think it was the late 70's and Richard Petty was caught with an engine that was simply too big; they took away all his points, and I'm pretty sure they hit him with a fine, but he's still listed as the winner of that race.

So who gets the win if they take if from Carl? Does it go to Dale Jr? Then they would have to take HIS car through the same inspection, and what if he's busted for cheating as Hendrick cars have been more than once (I'm a Gordon fan, so don't get too mad at me saying that)? Plus, how can you guranatee that Junior would have held on to get the win?

There's too many questions that come up if you strip someone of the win. Take away points, money, and the crew chief. If he's caught doing the same thing again (which won't happen cause he'll probably wind up on probation), then you look at driver suspensions, IMO.

[clemsontigers23]

This isn't track, and NASCAR doesn't have a history of taking away wins. I think it was the late 70's and Richard Petty was caught with an engine that was simply too big; they took away all his points, and I'm pretty sure they hit him with a fine, but he's still listed as the winner of that race.

So who gets the win if they take if from Carl? Does it go to Dale Jr? Then they would have to take HIS car through the same inspection, and what if he's busted for cheating as Hendric cars have been more than once (I'm a Gordon fan, so don't get too mad at me saying that)? Plus, how can you guranatee that Junior would have held on to get the win?

There's too many questions that come up if you strip someone of the win. Take away points, money, and the crew chief. If he's caught doing the same thing again (which won't happen cause he'll probably wind up on probation), then you look at driver suspensions, IMO.

I don't know, I just think NASCAR doesn't do enough to penalize teams. Hendrick's been penalized so many times over the years and they're STILL cheating. Chad Knaus has been suspended more than any other crew chief in NASCAR history. So something should be done, but I don't know what.

[Jake]

I don't know, I just think NASCAR doesn't do enough to penalize teams. Hendrick's been penalized so many times over the years and they're STILL cheating. Chad Knaus has been suspended more than any other crew chief in NASCAR history. So something should be done, but I don't know what.

I think that is where driver suspensions should come in to play. I'm a Gordon fan, but not a Johnson fan (My fiance would kill me for saying this lol). Knaus and crew have been busted for so many violations, I think the only logical thing to do would be to sit Johnson out for a race the next time they are caught cheating.

[clemsontigers23]

I think that is where driver suspensions should come in to play. I'm a Gordon fan, but not a Johnson fan (My fiance would kill me for saying this lol). Knaus and crew have been busted for so many violations, I think the only logical thing to do would be to sit Johnson out for a race the next time they are caught cheating.

Which will happen eventually this season. I know that people say "if you ain't cheatin' you aint' tryin'" but the integrity of the sport is at question, or whatever integrity's left of it, when the winning drivers are caught cheating. Whatever NASCAR does they need to do something that sends a message. I agree that driver suspensions would be big, but they won't happen. NASCAR depends on the drivers' sponsorships too much for them to do that. They wouldn't want to risk losing a corporate sponsor.

[Jake]

Which will happen eventually this season. I know that people say "if you ain't cheatin' you aint' tryin'" but the integrity of the sport is at question, or whatever integrity's left of it, when the winning drivers are caught cheating. Whatever NASCAR does they need to do something that sends a message. I agree that driver suspensions would be big, but they won't happen. NASCAR depends on the drivers' sponsorships too much for them to do that. They wouldn't want to risk losing a corporate sponsor.

See, I disagree, as the team sponsors are not contracted with NASCAR. The teams would be too afraid of losing their driver, and in turn pissing off the sponsors to cheat if they knew they were already in trouble.

[HotWireD]

I have serviced my own cars and motorcycles in the past. Sometimes I leaves bits off when I have been in a hurry.

The oil cooler lid may have been an accident by one of the crew. Do not give him the win, but disciplining him and his team? Bit harsh in my view - unless they can prove it was intentional.

[Genna14]

I have serviced my own cars and motorcycles in the past. Sometimes I leaves bits off when I have been in a hurry.

The oil cooler lid may have been an accident by one of the crew. Do not give him the win, but disciplining him and his team? Bit harsh in my view - unless they can prove it was intentional.
See thats where it gets really gray because you just CAN'T know if it was intentional. I have said before and I will say again, I just dont see Robby or Carl having to be held responsible for this. I mean I dont think they have much to do with the car when its being built/worked on outside of the pits.

To be honest, I think all or most of Hendrick's cheating is very intentional. No other team gets busted as much as they do! But hey, that's just my opinion.

[jrmitch]

I've been chuckling over this one all week long because I love listening to Jack have to whine (yeah, I admit it - I'm not a fan of the Cat in the hat.....:D ).

However, I also don't think Jack knew about this. He may be a lot of things, but there's never been any evidence that he's one who would try to stretch the rules to this extent. I do think there's merit to the argument that the part was deliberately rigged to fail during the race in order to give Carl an aerodynamic advantage. I just can't see Jack being a willing co-conspirator.

[Jake]

I don't think the owners know about most of the cheating that goes on.

[Genna14]

I don't think the owners know about most of the cheating that goes on.
Yeah I agree but you cannot possibly look me in the eye and say Knaus doesn't know.

I am 99% sure that the crew chiefs all know about it! Car chiefs too...Drivers probably don't. I don't see them having much to do with the car off the track except to fix certain on track conditions

[jrmitch]

Genna, I'm absolutely positive that crew chiefs know about it, and most of them also know what the other guy may be trying to do. (Chad Knaus said this week that they had tested a Hendrick car with no oil lid cover in a wind tunnel and found that it gained 100 extra pounds of downforce). Many of the most legendary crew chiefs (several of whom went on to become owners and Nascar officials) were once some of the most creative guys at both cheating and also at finding loopholes in the rules. Which brings me to defend Chad a little bit.

Practically every crew chief (and owner) will tell you that it is essential that crews look for every conceivable edge to gain an advantage, and in the process of doing so that means that you push up against the edge of the rules as hard as possible. I actually admire guys like Chad, because they're always looking for the gray area in the rules that will allow them to gain an advantage over everyone else. It's simply how the sport has always been run - if you can get away with something that's not written in black and white, it's been worth the risk. The big problem right now for guys like Chad is that Nascar has finally taken the template and inspection process to such an extreme that there are very few gray areas left. And that's where Chad has constantly bumped up against Nascar - areas that were once murky are now being painted as black and white.

If I'm an owner starting a new team in Cup and I had my pick of any crew chief out there I'd grab Chad in a heartbeat, because of how well prepared he is to find every angle and trick that he can to make my car as good as possible. If we're gonna talk serious cheaters, then we've gotta look back at guys like Junior Johnson, Smoky Yunick, and Gary Nelson. They wrote the book on how to creatively break as many rules as possible, and if we're gonna blast Chad for his efforts then in retrospect we have to also condemn many of the guys who helped make Nascar what it is today.

[jrmitch]

For those who haven't seen it I thought y'all might find this article written during last season by ESPN's Terry Blount to be of interest. :)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/news/story?id=2963354

[Jake]

Yeah I agree but you cannot possibly look me in the eye and say Knaus doesn't know.

I am 99% sure that the crew chiefs all know about it! Car chiefs too...Drivers probably don't. I don't see them having much to do with the car off the track except to fix certain on track conditions

Well I can't possibly look you in the eye at all from this angle...but that's netiher her nor there :D

Having said that, I'm sure that every crew/car chief knows about the cheating that goes on.

[Genna14]

Genna, I'm absolutely positive that crew chiefs know about it, and most of them also know what the other guy may be trying to do. (Chad Knaus said this week that they had tested a Hendrick car with no oil lid cover in a wind tunnel and found that it gained 100 extra pounds of downforce). Many of the most legendary crew chiefs (several of whom went on to become owners and Nascar officials) were once some of the most creative guys at both cheating and also at finding loopholes in the rules. Which brings me to defend Chad a little bit.

Practically every crew chief (and owner) will tell you that it is essential that crews look for every conceivable edge to gain an advantage, and in the process of doing so that means that you push up against the edge of the rules as hard as possible. I actually admire guys like Chad, because they're always looking for the gray area in the rules that will allow them to gain an advantage over everyone else. It's simply how the sport has always been run - if you can get away with something that's not written in black and white, it's been worth the risk. The big problem right now for guys like Chad is that Nascar has finally taken the template and inspection process to such an extreme that there are very few gray areas left. And that's where Chad has constantly bumped up against Nascar - areas that were once murky are now being painted as black and white.

If I'm an owner starting a new team in Cup and I had my pick of any crew chief out there I'd grab Chad in a heartbeat, because of how well prepared he is to find every angle and trick that he can to make my car as good as possible. If we're gonna talk serious cheaters, then we've gotta look back at guys like Junior Johnson, Smoky Yunick, and Gary Nelson. They wrote the book on how to creatively break as many rules as possible, and if we're gonna blast Chad for his efforts then in retrospect we have to also condemn many of the guys who helped make Nascar what it is today.
That's all very interesting and I know that before the rulebook became the way it is, there were a lot more grey areas. Viewing this from a Christian perspective, however, I would think that it would be risking integrity. I'm not, by any means, playing the holier than thou card, but I would not want to overstep the values I have.

Well I can't possibly look you in the eye at all from this angle...but that's netiher her nor there

Having said that, I'm sure that every crew/car chief knows about the cheating that goes on.


LOL!