Economic Stimulus

[clemsontigers23]

I saw this on Fox News so I don't have a link, but Bush met with Congressional leaders today to discuss an economic stimulus program and they are actually in agreement on something. This is a bipartisan thing. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid came out and said they are confident that they'll be able to work with the President. They have pretty much agreed on a plan that will cost around $150 billion. They want to do something that won't take much time, however, and that's the problem with tax rebates. It will be very hard to get tax rebates out anytime soon and by the time they come out it might be too late. Orrin Hatch had a pretty good proposal regarding Social Security taxes that would benefit low-income households as well, whereas tax rebates wouldn't benefit 44 million Americans who don't pay income taxes. Some Democrats talked about increasing food stamps for low-income families because they would be more likely to spend the money quickly, which is what they're going for, but that wouldn't seem very fair to people who aren't on welfare.

Anyways, at least Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid actually agree with Bush on something. Something's going to get done, they just don't know what it is.

[RevZeek]

What is the difference in this from the tax rebates from the "Bush tax plan" of a few years ago? I'm honestly curious not trying to stir up stuff or be smart alec-y. If there is no difference why aren't the Democrats screaming about this the way that they were then.

[in hiding]

maybe they should just print more money... How else will we pay 200 million dollars per day to fight the iraq war and support the 737 (give or take a few) foreign military bases.

You want economic stimulus? Bring 400 of those bases back to to the US where the money the US spends (in salaries, benefits, housing) will now be spent here in the US rather than abroad.

[cheewiee]

What is the difference in this from the tax rebates from the "Bush tax plan" of a few years ago? I'm honestly curious not trying to stir up stuff or be smart alec-y. If there is no difference why aren't the Democrats screaming about this the way that they were then.

Actually this rebate is far more generous.. the proposed Rebate now is 800.00 per person vs. 300 in 01 (or was that in 02?)

I think the rebate is a good idea, but I also think that there needs to be tax cuts targeted towards generating Small Business spending, and towards large scale companies creating jobs in the US marketplace.

[Evanescence]

maybe they should just print more money... How else will we pay 200 million dollars per day to fight the iraq war and support the 737 (give or take a few) foreign military bases.

You want economic stimulus? Bring 400 of those bases back to to the US where the money the US spends (in salaries, benefits, housing) will now be spent here in the US rather than abroad.

Its a joke and madness....Bush should be removed from office for Gods sake...

He's putting us FURTHER in debt...its gonna be worthless money and a small, temp fix...

When will people see that our monetary system is bogus and that the fed is ruining us with their manipulation....

Its FAKE money !!!!!!!

[in hiding]

Its a joke and madness....Bush should be removed from office for Gods sake...

He's putting us FURTHER in debt...its gonna be worthless money and a small, temp fix...

When will people see that our monetary system is bogus and that the fed is ruining us with their manipulation....

Its FAKE money !!!!!!!

i'm thinking you missed the sarcasm in my post...or your helping support my post...ah forget it. I agree with what you say here.

[clemsontigers23]

Actually this rebate is far more generous.. the proposed Rebate now is 800.00 per person vs. 300 in 01 (or was that in 02?)

I think the rebate is a good idea, but I also think that there needs to be tax cuts targeted towards generating Small Business spending, and towards large scale companies creating jobs in the US marketplace.

There are a couple of things that have really hurt the economy. For one, the housing crisis. But I also think NAFTA is continuing to destroy our economy and cause millions of Americans to lose their jobs. Getting rid of NAFTA would greatly help our economy, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

In '01 Bush's tax rebates were actually very successful because people spent most of the money as soon as they got it, but the reason it might not work this time is because it would take so long to get them sent out. Also, people who don't pay taxes wouldn't get any rebates, such as the lower-income households.

[cheewiee]

There are a couple of things that have really hurt the economy. For one, the housing crisis. But I also think NAFTA is continuing to destroy our economy and cause millions of Americans to lose their jobs. Getting rid of NAFTA would greatly help our economy, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

In '01 Bush's tax rebates were actually very successful because people spent most of the money as soon as they got it, but the reason it might not work this time is because it would take so long to get them sent out. Also, people who don't pay taxes wouldn't get any rebates, such as the lower-income households.

Once the bill is signed into Law the treasury can start sending checks out. almost immediatley. That's why this sort of advanced tax cut works, because it puts the money into peoples pockets almost immediatly.

[Jason]

Once the bill is signed into Law the treasury can start sending checks out. almost immediatley. That's why this sort of advanced tax cut works, because it puts the money into peoples pockets almost immediatly.

Except mine. I don't pay taxes.

[cheewiee]

Except mine. I don't pay taxes.

Right.. that's why you wouldn't get a Tax Rebate.....

[Jason]

Right.. that's why you wouldn't get a Tax Rebate.....

Oh well. And I wanted to help stimulate the economy.

edited to add: I would've immediately bought a Dell HD monitor and stimulated U.S. commercial interests.

[clemsontigers23]

Once the bill is signed into Law the treasury can start sending checks out. almost immediatley. That's why this sort of advanced tax cut works, because it puts the money into peoples pockets almost immediatly.

I'm pretty sure the IRS would be dealing with the tax rebates and the guy who was speaking to Congress yesterday (can't remember his name) said that the IRS is already tied up with the current tax season and unable to deal with this at the moment because it's simply too much to handle.

[cheewiee]

I'm pretty sure the IRS would be dealing with the tax rebates and the guy who was speaking to Congress yesterday (can't remember his name) said that the IRS is already tied up with the current tax season and unable to deal with this at the moment because it's simply too much to handle.

The Tax rebates we got in 01 came from the Treasury Department....

[clemsontigers23]

The Tax rebates we got in 01 came from the Treasury Department....

Maybe so, I'm just going by what I heard...or at least what I thought I heard. I think you're right about that, actually, but they were talking about how it could be a problem getting out tax rebates for some reason.

The Democrats keep talking about increasing unemployment benefits, welfare checks, and food stamps. What the? People who don't make a certain amount of income don't pay taxes! The richest 10% pay 40% of the taxes! Seriously, I hope sometime in my lifetime Huckabee and Paul's Fair Tax becomes a reality. This country penalizes prosperity. I don't want to hear about giving benefits to people who don't pay taxes and already live off the government. I will NEVER vote Democrat for president no matter who it is because this is getting ridiculous! I'm serious, if a Democrat wins in '08 I'm not sure what I'll do.

[cheewiee]

Maybe so, I'm just going by what I heard...or at least what I thought I heard. I think you're right about that, actually, but they were talking about how it could be a problem getting out tax rebates for some reason.

Regardless, the rebates are happening, both sides of the aisle support them in some form... The Republicans are looking for 4-500, the President and the dems are targeting the 800 figure...

[clemsontigers23]

The best thing we can do right now is SPEND! Don't get scared and stop spending because then we really will go into a recession! Buy stock, it's certainly a buyer's market right now! If we stop spending then the economy suffers. You are actually helping yourself in the long run if you open up the wallet a little bit. Now's the time to buy that new car or an iPod, a new phone, a new house, etc. Go out and spend some green!

[Evanescence]

The best thing we can do right now is SPEND! Don't get scared and stop spending because then we really will go into a recession! Buy stock, it's certainly a buyer's market right now! If we stop spending then the economy suffers. You are actually helping yourself in the long run if you open up the wallet a little bit. Now's the time to buy that new car or an iPod, a new phone, a new house, etc. Go out and spend some green!

cash...not credit....

pay off all debt and don't take risks....

the big banks want your money....

[Evanescence]

Regardless, the rebates are happening, both sides of the aisle support them in some form... The Republicans are looking for 4-500, the President and the dems are targeting the 800 figure...

cash...or a tax credit?

[cheewiee]

cash...or a tax credit?

So a Tax Rebate is essentially a retroactive Tax Cut. It says, we are going to cut taxes for 2008. Which is fine, except the witholding tables by the IRS have already been published. For this Tax Cut to take effect, really then means you normally wouldn't be paid this until the following Tax Season.

A tax rebate on the other hand says, We will go ahead and pay in advance for the tax cut, and we will collect the higher witholding this year anyway.

This is why people who don't pay taxes, don't get rebates.

Now, what this means to you and I, lets say based on my 2007 return, I qualify for a higher rebate than I actually do in 2008. Well then if I didn't get that entire 800 bucks, then I have to repay that next April.

But regardless, a retroactive Tax cut is a great idea.

I also think that we need targetd tax cuts and legislation (like companies able to write off 50% depreciation this year on purachases made this year) targeted towards business spending.

I think you have a point EV, though, if between me and Michelle, get this 1,600 bucks the president is talking about, that money is going towards debt. But then, I will have the extra money in my monthly budget to spend. To me, that is long term economic stimulis, and not just a shot in the arm, just spending 1,600 would be.

[Jesuslove]

Its a joke and madness....Bush should be removed from office for Gods sake...

He's putting us FURTHER in debt...its gonna be worthless money and a small, temp fix...

When will people see that our monetary system is bogus and that the fed is ruining us with their manipulation....

Its FAKE money !!!!!!!

Amen! We are going further and further in debt based on a false economy. I disagree with the stimulus package. Let's just deal with this mess now.

[cheewiee]

Amen! We are going further and further in debt based on a false economy. I disagree with the stimulus package. Let's just deal with this mess now.

Then you disagree with almost everyone in Congress, Dems and Repubs...

[Jesuslove]

Then you disagree with almost everyone in Congress, Dems and Repubs...

Probably so. But it is the right thing to do.

[cheewiee]

Probably so. But it is the right thing to do.

No it isnt...

[Jesuslove]

No it isnt...


So we should spend spend spend. I thought you were a conservative?

[cheewiee]

So we should spend spend spend. I thought you were a conservative?

A tax cut isn't "Spending" its a tax cut... I expect Congress to make adjustments to earmarks and budgetary spending to account for the tax cuts... but Tax cuts are always a conservative thing...

[Jesuslove]

A tax cut isn't "Spending" its a tax cut... I expect Congress to make adjustments to earmarks and budgetary spending to account for the tax cuts... but Tax cuts are always a conservative thing...

Tax cuts, when we have a record deficit isn't smart. Our deficit continues to grow and grow and Bush has done nothing to curb spending or increase taxes to cover the rapidly growing deficit. It is fiscally irresponsible.

[bdfwinn]

Tax cuts, when we have a record deficit isn't smart. Our deficit continues to grow and grow and Bush has done nothing to curb spending or increase taxes to cover the rapidly growing deficit. It is fiscally irresponsible.

The GWBA's tax cuts from 2000-2001 have increased overall tax revenues. It is the Federal Govt that has grown to a size unmanageable with the current tax burden by spending us down the river and flippantly printing money to support a war we never should have been involved in. Fiscally irresponsible is a good assesment. But cutting taxes is never irresponsible NOT CUTTING THE FEDERAL GOVT. IS!


*bulldoze 3 out of 5 govt buildings in D.C.*

[cheewiee]

Well it looks like the Dems dropped the Food Stamps, and Unemployment extensions and the over all rebate will be about 300 bucks per person... 600 for a married couple... up to 1,200 per family...

The rebates are capped to people who earn less than 75,000 individually or 150,000 couple.... and they will go almost everyone who gets a paycheck....

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Well I'm sorry to say that my rebate (300 dollars per person in June won't do much) will not be part of the stimulus, as it will go directly towards my debt. You can blame Dave Ramsey for that! I'm using it to pay for the stimulus I provided years ago.

[clemsontigers23]

Well I'm sorry to say that my rebate (300 dollars per person in June won't do much) will not be part of the stimulus, as it will go directly towards my debt. You can blame Dave Ramsey for that! I'm using it to pay for the stimulus I provided years ago.

You don't see anything positive about getting money back from the government? Wow, dude, have some optimism. ;)

[Jason]

You don't see anything positive about getting money back from the government? Wow, dude, have some optimism. ;)

I don't think he's saying that, but rather that he personally won't be stimulating the economy as his rebate check will go toward paying off debts as opposing to buying stuff.

[clemsontigers23]

I don't think he's saying that, but rather that he personally won't be stimulating the economy as his rebate check will go toward paying off debts as opposing to buying stuff.

Ah, but is that not still stimulating the economy? At least a small portion of the debt will be eliminated. :P

I'm sorry, Weasel, I took that out of context. ;)

[cheewiee]

Well I'm sorry to say that my rebate (300 dollars per person in June won't do much) will not be part of the stimulus, as it will go directly towards my debt. You can blame Dave Ramsey for that! I'm using it to pay for the stimulus I provided years ago.

Well, no it will still stimulate the economy, it will remove your debt level, allowing you to spend more in the future...

[bdfwinn]

Here's an economic stimulus package for ya-

Cut the Federal Budget in half, eliminate the Federal Income tax, and replace it with nothing. See how our economy would roar after that!
Bill

[cheewiee]

Here's an economic stimulus package for ya-

Cut the Federal Budget in half, eliminate the Federal Income tax, and replace it with nothing. See how our economy would roar after that!
Bill

So it's easy to say, Cut the federal Budget in Half... without getting down to brass tax... what should be cut out of the budget?

[Jesuslove]

So it's easy to say, Cut the federal Budget in Half... without getting down to brass tax... what should be cut out of the budget?

For starters, funding for the war. End this war now and bring our troops home.

[cheewiee]

For starters, funding for the war. End this war now and bring our troops home.

So now that we are finally winning and stabilizing the country, we turn tail?

[bdfwinn]

1. Okay for starters (without getting into a debate about the US Iraq Insurgency) we end this war and get our troops home.


2. Close all US Military Bases abroad and bring those troops home.

3. Dissolve the Federal Dept of Education

4. Dissolve the Federal Communication Commission

5. Repeal the Federal Reserve Act and dissolve its subsidiary bureaucracies

6. Dissolve the Federal Department of Health and Human Resources

7. Dissolve all Federal Social Security and Medicaid/ Medicare and Prescription Drug Programs

8. Dissolve the Department of Homeland Security (A failed bureaucracy that is chewing up needless taxpayer's dollars)

9. Dissolve the functions and bureaucracies of the Federal Govt that do not either A. Provide for the common defense B. Settle disputes between states C. Regulate interstate commerce

10. Almost forgot that if you do away with the Federal Tax Code you don't need the IRS so there is another giant bureaucracy that could be cut. (they use up about 10 billion dollars of the US Federal Budget each year)


Now before I get gigged on my list (especially number 7) let me say that states would then be responsible for administering those services as they see fit. That is what the Constitution intends anyway. So if your state wants to enact a huge entitlement package then they could vote it into law and then people could vote with their feet. If you don’t like it you can move, such is the case in California where people are moving out because of high taxes. Even on a national scale corporations are moving out of, or not coming to, the US because our Corporate tax rate is one of the highest in the world.


The Federal budget could be cut back to the levels of the early 90's and still the Federal Income Tax could be ended. Also a smaller federal govt would be easy to track and would help reduce the Billions- YES BILLIONS with a B- that are misplaced every year. People you still pay the 4% tax imposed to support the war effort ... ready?... from WORLD WAR TWO!


Its radical and may give some a stroke when they read it but I promise you that if Sam Adams, Tom Jefferson, James Madison, Patrick Henry, George Washington, Ben Franklin, John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, Richard Spaight, and the like would have a stroke after 5 minutes in Washington when they saw what a giant their dream of and mandated SMALL govt had become. End Rant ... --- ... End Transmission.

Bill

"The only thing to fear is big govt". . . me:D

[in hiding]

So now that we are finally winning and stabilizing the country, we turn tail?

what good is it if we "win" in Iraq and yet our economy / society crashes here at home? And no we dont turn tail; we let the Iraqi people run their country and deal with their problems.

[clemsontigers23]

1. Okay for starters (without getting into a debate about the US Iraq Insurgency) we end this war and get our troops home.


2. Close all US Military Bases abroad and bring those troops home.

3. Dissolve the Federal Dept of Education

4. Dissolve the Federal Communication Commission

5. Repeal the Federal Reserve Act and dissolve its subsidiary bureaucracies

6. Dissolve the Federal Department of Health and Human Resources

7. Dissolve all Federal Social Security and Medicaid/ Medicare and Prescription Drug Programs

8. Dissolve the Department of Homeland Security (A failed bureaucracy that is chewing up needless taxpayer's dollars)

9. Dissolve the functions and bureaucracies of the Federal Govt that do not either A. Provide for the common defense B. Settle disputes between states C. Regulate interstate commerce

10. Almost forgot that if you do away with the Federal Tax Code you don't need the IRS so there is another giant bureaucracy that could be cut. (they use up about 10 billion dollars of the US Federal Budget each year)


Now before I get gigged on my list (especially number 7) let me say that states would then be responsible for administering those services as they see fit. That is what the Constitution intends anyway. So if your state wants to enact a huge entitlement package then they could vote it into law and then people could vote with their feet. If you don’t like it you can move, such is the case in California where people are moving out because of high taxes. Even on a national scale corporations are moving out of, or not coming to, the US because our Corporate tax rate is one of the highest in the world.


The Federal budget could be cut back to the levels of the early 90's and still the Federal Income Tax could be ended. Also a smaller federal govt would be easy to track and would help reduce the Billions- YES BILLIONS with a B- that are misplaced every year. People you still pay the 4% tax imposed to support the war effort ... ready?... from WORLD WAR TWO!


Its radical and may give some a stroke when they read it but I promise you that if Sam Adams, Tom Jefferson, James Madison, Patrick Henry, George Washington, Ben Franklin, John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, Richard Spaight, and the like would have a stroke after 5 minutes in Washington when they saw what a giant their dream of and mandated SMALL govt had become. End Rant ... --- ... End Transmission.

Bill

"The only thing to fear is big govt". . . me:D

Close all military bases? Are you crazy? There are people who depend on our protection! It's ironic that the Democrats talk so much about welfare and helping the poor in our own country but care nothing about helping the poor people in Iraq. We're winning the war. Now's not the time to leave. Let our troops win and stop trying to prevent them from accomplishing their mission! You know how troubled many troops are by these anti-war comments so many people are making? How would you feel if you were risking your life to protect a nation who doesn't even support what you're fighting for? Have a little faith in our troops that they can get the job done.

[Jesuslove]

Close all military bases? Are you crazy? There are people who depend on our protection! It's ironic that the Democrats talk so much about welfare and helping the poor in our own country but care nothing about helping the poor people in Iraq. We're winning the war. Now's not the time to leave. Let our troops win and stop trying to prevent them from accomplishing their mission! You know how troubled many troops are by these anti-war comments so many people are making? How would you feel if you were risking your life to protect a nation who doesn't even support what you're fighting for? Have a little faith in our troops that they can get the job done.

What does winnning the war mean? What is our ultimate mission? How would you feel if foreign soldiers occupied America? Would you be comfortable? Just because Americans are against the war, doesn't mean we don't support the troops.

[clemsontigers23]

What does winnning the war mean? What is our ultimate mission? How would you feel if foreign soldiers occupied America? Would you be comfortable? Just because Americans are against the war, doesn't mean we don't support the troops.

If you are against the war then you are against the very cause that the troops are putting their lives on the line fighting for.

If you would try talking to an actual soldier instead of watching CNN then you would know the soldiers are greeted as liberators on a daily basis. The images of Iraqis tearing down the statue of Saddam Hussein is lost in our minds because news stations only focus on the negative. You base your whole belief system about the war on what the biased media tells you to believe. I know people who have been there and I've talked to them about it. People sometimes come out of their houses to greet our troops walking down the street with cheers and applause. They are grateful that we freed them from tyranny and are now in the process of becoming a democratic and free country. Now that violence has decreased significantly, Iraq will begin moving forward politically. We can't give up on them now. When did America become a bunch of quitters? Try having a little patience for once and stop rooting for us to fail in Iraq.

[Valpo]

I am not for the Iraq War so we can watch Americans kick Middle Eastern ***. Far from it. I am "for" the war in Iraq because I do believe it is a central front on the War on Terror. Men and women smarter than me, even on this board, disagree with me, and that's fair. I do think a real enemy exists out there and I do think it is Islamo-Facism. The war was horribly mismanaged from the beginning. Former Secretary Rumsfeld deserve to lose his job, even if he did resign. Call me a neo-con (do people even actually know what that means?) call me whatever really because I frankly do not care. I know why I believe in this cause, as the men and women fighting over there do. Some of who are my very own friends. I know they believe in the cause and like it or not I believe as do they, that we need to stay there to knock this enemy out and help Iraq build for a better day. I understand Iraq was not involved on 9/11 and do think the Afghanistan front was neglected to some extent, but today we are in Iraq and al-Qaeda is there, and they were there in some number prior to. But whether they were or not is pretty irrelevant now, because that is where al-Qaeda is focusing most of its strength. Semper Fi

[in hiding]

Close all military bases? Are you crazy? There are people who depend on our protection! It's ironic that the Democrats talk so much about welfare and helping the poor in our own country but care nothing about helping the poor people in Iraq. We're winning the war. Now's not the time to leave. Let our troops win and stop trying to prevent them from accomplishing their mission! You know how troubled many troops are by these anti-war comments so many people are making? How would you feel if you were risking your life to protect a nation who doesn't even support what you're fighting for? Have a little faith in our troops that they can get the job done.

the people of iceland, UK, portugal, beligium, netherlands, germany and italy need our protection? There are over 20 miltary installations in Germany alone. The ironic thing is that an anti-iraq war candidate is leading the list of all candidates for military donations.

[in hiding]

I am not for the Iraq War so we can watch Americans kick Middle Eastern ***. Far from it. I am "for" the war in Iraq because I do believe it is a central front on the War on Terror. Men and women smarter than me, even on this board, disagree with me, and that's fair. I do think a real enemy exists out there and I do think it is Islamo-Facism. The war was horribly mismanaged from the beginning. Former Secretary Rumsfeld deserve to lose his job, even if he did resign. Call me a neo-con (do people even actually know what that means?) call me whatever really because I frankly do not care. I know why I believe in this cause, as the men and women fighting over there do. Some of who are my very own friends. I know they believe in the cause and like it or not I believe as do they, that we need to stay there to knock this enemy out and help Iraq build for a better day. I understand Iraq was not involved on 9/11 and do think the Afghanistan front was neglected to some extent, but today we are in Iraq and al-Qaeda is there, and they were there in some number prior to. But whether they were or not is pretty irrelevant now, because that is where al-Qaeda is focusing most of its strength. Semper Fi


what point is it worth having the problems at home not be addressed, or not be addressed the best they can in order to put valuable resources into another country? I'm all for helping other countries and fighting terrorism; but we have to take care of home first. If you have a failing house and failing familiy should you address those issues first or should you worry about everyone else??

[Andi]

what point is it worth having the problems at home not be addressed, or not be addressed the best they can in order to put valuable resources into another country? I'm all for helping other countries and fighting terrorism; but we have to take care of home first. If you have a failing house and failing familiy should you address those issues first or should you worry about everyone else??


I used to agree with this stance, but no longer do.

We are helping our own, but as a "superpower" as some call us - we are to help others just as much.

Where does it say that we Americans are more important than the rest of the world?

[in hiding]

I used to agree with this stance, but no longer do.

We are helping our own, but as a "superpower" as some call us - we are to help others just as much.

Where does it say that we Americans are more important than the rest of the world?

I agree we should help others as much as we "responsibly" should. I hope I don't come across as other nations / people aren't as important. I look at it like the example I gave. Make sure your foundation/ home is taken care of so you can more effectively help others. I don't see the benefit of trying to build up another nation while ours begins to crumble. A country that spreads it's resources to thin is no different than a family that does. At some point you have to adjust lifestyle, spending and priorities in order to remain responsible and pertinent. Again, if our economy collapses and we cant help people who have put money into this govt (U.S) what good does it do to be sending money overseas to help a different country? if you made 500 dollars a week and had bills of 400 dollars a week would you spend 600 dollars a week helping your neighbor instead of your own family? No, you'd most likely do the responsible thing and get your family and house in order b/c THEN you could help out other people better

[Andi]

^ Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you meant differently.

[clemsontigers23]

the people of iceland, UK, portugal, beligium, netherlands, germany and italy need our protection? There are over 20 miltary installations in Germany alone. The ironic thing is that an anti-iraq war candidate is leading the list of all candidates for military donations.

I was referring to smaller countries, but since we helped save Europe from Hitler's army they are more than happy to have us over there. The bases, especially the ones in Germany, are also key places in the War on Terror and we need them so that we will be able to quickly respond to a threat. In my opinion, the belief that we were attacked mainly because we had bases in Saudi Arabia is ridiculous. None of those countries you mentioned have attacked us. No terrorists native to those countries have attacked us. It is a clash of ideologies. This group of radical Muslims declared war on the U.S. and Christianity. We are not to blame for their hatred of us. It is because they were deceived by Satan and other demonic forces working in the world today.