Mandatory microchips in human beings-it's finally here

[middletree]

Britain plans to force prisoners to have chips implanted

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3333852.ece

[Andi]

Scary. Degrading.

I can't help but picture prisoners with small knives slicing these things out of themselves. Like a bad B movie.

[mat1583]

Britain plans to force prisoners to have chips implanted

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3333852.ece

It's inevitability at work. I wrote a paper about RFID chips last year for a computer ethics course. My research into the matter was pretty discouraging. We're basically just a few steps away from tracking everyone, everywhere. The Patriot Act didn't help matters any.

-washboard

[WeaselInYerFoot]

Unless it's for a job, like the British Petroleum guys in the middle east, and designed to track me down for my own safety. If the government legislates and obligates us to have one, they'll have to taze me unconscious before I let them install one of those. Not because I think it'll be the Mark of the Beast, but I just don't believe the government has any right whatsoever to make me have a foreign object installed.

[lilmikey]

Unless it's for a job, like the British Petroleum guys in the middle east, and designed to track me down for my own safety. If the government legislates and obligates us to have one, they'll have to taze me unconscious before I let them install one of those. Not because I think it'll be the Mark of the Beast, but I just don't believe the government has any right whatsoever to make me have a foreign object installed.

I agree and I wouldn't want one either. But I also think that if they wanted to track us down that badly they could do it with out the chip.

[clemsontigers23]

They will have to kill me before they stick one of those in my hand. It's not a surprise that this is happening. We all knew it would. It's just a matter of when and how fast will it happen.

[Pouye]

The RFID chip has been on my radar for over 20 years. I even wrote a paper about it in 6th grade (12 years old), only for my teacher home room teacher to have a good laugh over it. It has been in development for quite some time now (since 1948, when RFID was invented).

This is one of the best ideas in the world, and one of the worst ideas in the world!

Just the convenience of this little gadget will cause it to become widespread in the near future. Pubs in Europe are already seeing volunteers conveniently using this technology to buy drinks: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3697940.stm

The ultimate answer to crime and terrorism is identification. If you can identify and track people, it makes crime and terrorism extremely difficult. This wouldn't stop crime, but it would make it very difficult to get away with crime -- which is why it is such a valuable tool. "Good citizen" will only say, "I don't have anything to hide, and so I'm fine with the whole thing, especially for convenience sake."

Traveling will become a breeze. Passports and visa approvals can become e-documents that reside only in a computer database. Paper money will eventually (at least in developed countries) become obsolete (as it almost is now!). No more credit cards to be stolen, no more cash to be stolen, no more phone or even library cards. In fact, every card you have in your wallet or purse can easily be integrated into your RFID chip. Have chip, will travel!

Some people are worried that someone might steal a person's chip. For one, it would be very difficult to do. For two, RFID chips themselves are biometric -- meaning that they sense heart rates, temperature, and other biological data: http://www.tmcnet.com/biomag/articles/2837-tetragate-new-biometric-rfid-tracking-technology.htm
http://www.digitalangel.com/biosensor.aspx

This technology on a widespread level is inevitable, folks. It is just too good, and has too many great applications to make the world an easier, safer, more convenient place to live, work, travel, etc.

I actually wanted to buy stock in the company Applied Digital Solutions, Inc. when it first came into existence. But the idea of making money from something that could turn out to used by Satan in a very destructive way turned me off.

Rock

[pamcharlie]

Oh No not for me or my cat charlie because as a christian i would rather have the name of my heavenly father on my forehead and i am so against mircochipping humans and animals since God warns us about this in revelations I belong to jesus and so does my cat so avoid the mircochip Yipes

[mat1583]

Oh No not for me or my cat charlie because as a christian i would rather have the name of my heavenly father on my forehead and i am so against mircochipping humans and animals since God warns us about this in revelations I belong to jesus and so does my cat so avoid the mircochip Yipes

An RFID chip is nothing like the mark of the beast, which is described as some mark that would be clearly visible. As Christians, we will also know that the mark IS the mark of the beast...not just some other form of identification. The only reason to be worried is that it could result in a MAJOR invasion of privacy.

-washboard

[Pouye]

They will have to kill me before they stick one of those in my hand. It's not a surprise that this is happening. We all knew it would. It's just a matter of when and how fast will it happen.

By the way, the Greek (and Hebrew) word for "hand" (Greek is "cheir") is not the same as English.

English is strict on the hand only extending to the wrist. Both Greek and Hebrew can well include at least the lower part of the arm, and often it is not possible to distinguish between arm and hand (arm meaning from the shoulder to the finger tips). For example, if a person "stretches out his hand", he has to stretch out his arm, too. If the upper arm is in complete focus, there are terms for (elbow, arm) or (arm, shoulder) in both languages -- but both Hebrew and Greek often use the word for "hand" in a generic sense for the body part that starts at the shoulder and ends at the finger tips.

Hebrew has one term for the hand in the sense of the palm of the hand, another term (yad) for the hand including the lower arm, and a third term (zero') for the upper arm including the shoulder.

Similarly, Hebrew has one term for foot and leg, so at times in NT Greek one can find the word for foot actually referring to the leg or the leg including the foot.

Many different languages have one word for foot/leg and another for hand/arm, so we need to be careful not to squeeze these terms into an English mold.

All this to say that just because they insert the chip into your "arm" and not your "hand" (in English), the Greek does not make such a distinction, and could very well means "hand" as in "from the shoulder to the finger tips".

Rock

[middletree]

An RFID chip is nothing like the mark of the beast, which is described as some mark that would be clearly visible.

This statement has been made many times here, and has never been proven. The Greek word which gets translated "mark" means a cut into the skin. It does not have to be visible, like a tattoo.

As Christians, we will also know that the mark IS the mark of the beast...

Again, not one verse supports this. Not a one. In fact, many support the opposite view, that Christians and non-Christians will be deceived into getting it.

[maui sista]

Put on your debating shoes because this one is gonna heat up!

Wow..markes in peoples hand/arm, I really am not sure about all the details that are going to take place in the end but I do know that I am not supposed to mark myself so thats when I am going to stick with.
And the thought of it kinda creeps me out anyway.

sonja

[pamcharlie]

Invasion of Privacy yikes and no way if you remember the novel 1984 do we need a Big Brother is watching situatiion no way and thanks for this we need a debate i love debates bring it on since a decade or so ago in new zealand we had a introduction of the community services card and many people were against it for the invasion of privacy issue

[Pouye]

An RFID chip is nothing like the mark of the beast, which is described as some mark that would be clearly visible. As Christians, we will also know that the mark IS the mark of the beast...not just some other form of identification. The only reason to be worried is that it could result in a MAJOR invasion of privacy.

-washboard

As Middletree said, it is not this clear cut. This is your opinion, and nothing more. You be self-assured all you want, but it doesn't make it fact either way.

It is interesting that the Mark of the Beast will be able to keep people from buying and selling... most buying and selling nowadays does not happen in face to face physical transfers, nor with cash. I remember one of my friends telling me 20 years ago that if the Mark of the Beast is a physical mark, and he would not be able to buy or sell without it, that he would just do mail order, so nobody would see that he doesn't have the Mark. I told him that the monetary system will eventually be based on a system of electronic transactions, and to be a part of that system you would have to be "marked".

Hmmm...

Rock

[mat1583]

This statement has been made many times here, and has never been proven. The Greek word which gets translated "mark" means a cut into the skin. It does not have to be visible, like a tattoo.



Again, not one verse supports this. Not a one. In fact, many support the opposite view, that Christians and non-Christians will be deceived into getting it.

Then could you at least provide a link/text/proof so I can alleviate my apparent ignorance?

-washboard

[mat1583]

As Middletree said, it is not this clear cut. This is your opinion, and nothing more. You be self-assured all you want, but it doesn't make it fact either way.


Thanks for those warm words that facilitate friendly discussion.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

As Middletree said, it is not this clear cut. This is your opinion, and nothing more. You be self-assured all you want, but it doesn't make it fact either way.

It is interesting that the Mark of the Beast will be able to keep people from buying and selling... most buying and selling nowadays does not happen in face to face physical transfers, nor with cash. I remember one of my friends telling me 20 years ago that if the Mark of the Beast is a physical mark, and he would not be able to buy or sell without it, that he would just do mail order, so nobody would see that he doesn't have the Mark. I told him that the monetary system will eventually be based on a system of electronic transactions, and to be a part of that system you would have to be "marked".

Hmmm...

Rock


The actual form that the mark appears in to me is irrelevant. I do believe it will be a literal three sixes marked on the forehead or arm in some fashion, but that is not my point.

I agree with Mat in this, I believe if God is going to hold people accountable for taking the mark (or not), that tells me that there will not be one single person on earth who takes the mark without knowing for certain that the mark (or chip) they are taking is in fact the mark of the beast.

So if this chip thingy really will be used for the mark of the beast, we will know it for certain before the tribulation gets here. That way no one takes it unaware.

For example in the garden, Satan tempted Eve to eat the fruit. And she made the decision to give-in to the temptation. She knew exactly what she was doing the whole time. She might not have known all the outcome of her sins, but she certainly knew she was about to disobey a direct mandate from God. There was no doubt about it. It will be the same with taking the mark. I don't believe anyone will be decieved and take the mark thinking it is a perfectly innocent thing.


People are looking for the return of Jesus, so it's a natural thing that they constantly speculate. But to say the chip is the mark of the beast is nothing more than speculation. The chip (as it is right now) is certainly not the mark of the beast. There is no beast yet.

[middletree]

Deception:
Rev 19:20 is the one that says that those who took the Mark were deceived.

Even though these verses don't directly relate to the Mark, they do demonstrate that someone, specifically, God's people, can be in for some bad times just for not knowing what they were doing:

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge; And their honorable men are famished, And their multitude is parched with thirst.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Also, consider the king Josiah, who, when he discovered that his people had been breaking the Law, made everyone fast and pray for forgiveness, even though none of them had, up to that point, any knowledge that they were displeasing God, because none of them had any copies of the Word of God. Josiah specifically prayed for forgiveness.

-----------------------------------------------

Mark being a cut into the skin:


Now, here's what the Strong's says about the word which is translated "mark" in the book of Revelation:

G5480
charagma
khar'-ag-mah
From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.


Since it says it comes from G5482, I'll paste that in here as well:

G5482
χάραξ
charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.

[Musicdude]

Deception:
Rev 19:20 is the one that says that those who took the Mark were deceived.

Even though these verses don't directly relate to the Mark, they do demonstrate that someone, specifically, God's people, can be in for some bad times just for not knowing what they were doing:

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge; And their honorable men are famished, And their multitude is parched with thirst.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Also, consider the king Josiah, who, when he discovered that his people had been breaking the Law, made everyone fast and pray for forgiveness, even though none of them had, up to that point, any knowledge that they were displeasing God, because none of them had any copies of the Word of God. Josiah specifically prayed for forgiveness.

-----------------------------------------------

Mark being a cut into the skin:


Now, here's what the Strong's says about the word which is translated "mark" in the book of Revelation:

G5480
charagma
khar'-ag-mah
From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.


Since it says it comes from G5482, I'll paste that in here as well:

G5482
χάραξ
charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.


Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Says, that the false prophet used miracles to decieve people into thinking he was the Christ, and getting people to follow him. That has nothing to do with telling the people the mark is really just an ID device, and not a symbol of worship.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Note that they were destroyed because they "rejected knowledge." Not because they were not exposed to it. They knew the truth, and they rejected it. They have "forgotten" the law. That means they once knew it.



I am not saying that people won't be able to justify taking the mark even knowing that it is wrong. I am saying that they will be willfully sinning when they do that. And deep down inside, they will know they are sinning. They won't be tricked into taking the mark, by disguising it as something innocent.

How can God hold us accountable for not taking the mark of the beast, whenever no one is really certain what the mark of the beast is? But how certain would you be if once the world is under one leader, said leader enacts a law whereby you must recieve a mark on your hand or forehead which is three sixes? There wouldn't be a lot of confusion then would there? Don't think it can't happen, just because it's too obvious.

[mat1583]

Deception:
Rev 19:20 is the one that says that those who took the Mark were deceived.

Even though these verses don't directly relate to the Mark, they do demonstrate that someone, specifically, God's people, can be in for some bad times just for not knowing what they were doing:

Rev 19:20 in no way shows that Christians were deceived into taking the Mark. It only says that the false prophet deceived those who has already taken the Mark, after the fact. He deceived them with false miracles.

I'm not going to dispute that people are going to be deceived into believing that the beast is a god. That is clear and simple. What I am disputing is that Christians firmly planted in the faith will somehow be blinded and not realize they are taking the Mark - as if it is by some mistake they are worshiping the Beast.

As to the exact form of what the Mark will be...no, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like. It is not clearly defined what it will look like. Yes, it is simply speculation and opinion based on scripture. I did not mean for it to come across as fact, which is why I did not post any scripture. I've been in many discussions about Revelation, and it always ends the way it started. Not everybody will agree on what the Mark will exactly be.


Isaiah 5:13 Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge; And their honorable men are famished, And their multitude is parched with thirst.

So you grab one verse out of all of Isaiah and us it to back up the claim that Christians will have no knowledge that they are taking the Mark? Let's look at the context of the verse:

Isaiah 5

11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp and the viol, the tabret and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

The question is, what do they not have an understanding or knowledge of? If you take into account the 2 verses before the one you posted, it is clear that they have no knowledge of when enough is enough. The people are filling themselves with wine, music and large feasts - so much that the honorable people have nothing left to eat and drink. The others have no clue when to stop and are causing hunger and thirst in those who do know when to stop. 5:13 has no relation to Revelation, especially to say that Christians will have no knowledge when they choose to take the Mark.


Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.


And the rest of the verse says:
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast
rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no
priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will
also forget thy children.

This is a voluntary rejection of knowledge, and a rejection of the law of God, not something that happens unknowingly or by accident. If a Christian chooses to take the Mark, then they are choosing to reject the knowledge, and thus they shall be rejected by God. I do not see how either of these verses proves that Christians will not know that they are rejecting the knowledge, the law of God, and blindly taking the Mark.



Mark being a cut into the skin:


Now, here's what the Strong's says about the word which is translated "mark" in the book of Revelation:

G5480
charagma
khar'-ag-mah
From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.


Since it says it comes from G5482, I'll paste that in here as well:

G5482
χάραξ
charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.

A 'scratch', 'etching', 'stamp' and 'sculpted figure' only confirm the idea that the Mark will be clearly visible. RFID chips are not visible in the least sense.

-washboard

[mat1583]

Says, that the false prophet used miracles to decieve people into thinking he was the Christ, and getting people to follow him. That has nothing to do with telling the people the mark is really just an ID device, and not a symbol of worship.

[...]



You beat me to it :)

-washboard

[middletree]

Mat and Wayne, while I respect your right to see these things as you do, and while I appreciate your taking the time to go through them one-by-one, I don't still don't see them as you do. I've said why I think what I do, and you have both stated your case, so there's really nothing left to say.

[Musicdude]

Mat and Wayne, while I respect your right to see these things as you do, and while I appreciate your taking the time to go through them one-by-one, I don't still don't see them as you do. I've said why I think what I do, and you have both stated your case, so there's really nothing left to say.

What are you disagreeing with exactly?
Do you think God is going to allow His people to be tricked into eternal damnation? How fair would that be? Someone who truly believes in God and wants to do His will, and stand up for Him even to death. But that person is decieved so they spend eternity in Hell, when they truly didn't realize they were taking any mark.

Some people could say the same about Social security cards, or State ID's, or whatever you want. We all have numbers assigned to us, which identify us. So technology develops a way to make it more convenient to carry around said identification.

If I have a chip implanted in my skin identifying my as an America citizen, a holder of certain credit accounts, etc. That is all it identifies me with. There is no fine print at the bottom of the release form which says, oh, by the way, you are also identifying yourself with the ruler of the world. That is impossible, because this person whom the mark is supposed to represent, doesn't even exist yet. Or if he does, he has not taken leadership yet.

If you are pre-trib as I am, it is even more impossible, because the church has not been raptured yet. But even if you aren't pre-trib, just look around you. The world has many leaders. There is not one leader demanding my allegience out there. When there is, I'll start worrying about putting marks on me.

I don't want a chip, because I just don't want to be that trackable. I don't trust our government at all, and I don't want them knowing where I am 24/7. But I don't think they are the anti-christ. They are just a corrupt government. There have been hundreds of corrupt governments throughout history, and none of them have been the anti-christ.


God: Bob Smith, you are condemned because you took the mark of the beast.

Bob Smith: But God, I thought I was signing up for food stamps.

God: Sorry Bob, you should've known better.

Bob Smith: How could I have known? The most intelligent creature in the world ever created, was trying to convince me that it was not the mark of the beast. He persuaded a third of the angels in Heaven to rebel against You, and you expect me to outsmart him?

God: Tough luck.


That doesn't sound like the gracious and merciful God I serve.
I was being a little sarcastic, I'll admit. But all I am saying is that people will know that the mark of the beast is the mark of the beast, and you are saying you disagree. If you really disagree, then the above scenario really could happen.

[middletree]

What are you disagreeing with exactly?


Like I said, I don't see the point in belaboring this. To answer your question, I see the verses exactly as I said I see them. I understand why you don't, but I do. That's pretty much it.

[mat1583]

That doesn't sound like the gracious and merciful God I serve.
I was being a little sarcastic, I'll admit. But all I am saying is that people will know that the mark of the beast is the mark of the beast, and you are saying you disagree. If you really disagree, then the above scenario really could happen.

While I don't disagree with you about the issue, you have to be very careful with using human reasoning to explain God. God's ways are still mysterious to us, and we won't have that understanding until we reach heaven.

The prime example I give for this is that God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt just for taking one last glance at her hometown that was about to be completely destroyed. We could easily look at this event from another perspective and question why a gracious and loving God would turn someone into a pillar of salt for disobeying a seemingly innocuous command. Another example is the husband and wife duo in Acts that were struck down dead because they chose to hold back and sell some of their land for profit instead of giving it all over to the Church.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

While I don't disagree with you about the issue, you have to be very careful with using human reasoning to explain God. God's ways are still mysterious to us, and we won't have that understanding until we reach heaven.

The prime example I give for this is that God turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt just for taking one last glance at her hometown that was about to be completely destroyed. We could easily look at this event from another perspective and question why a gracious and loving God would turn someone into a pillar of salt for disobeying a seemingly innocuous command. Another example is the husband and wife duo in Acts that were struck down dead because they chose to hold back and sell some of their land for profit instead of giving it all over to the Church.

-washboard


But all those people in your examples, chose to disobey God.
And who am I to criticize God for the punishment He gave them?

But let's say those people didn't know that God didn't want them doing those things, I dare say they wouldn't have recieved the same punishment.


I could be wrong.

[mat1583]

But let's say those people didn't know that God didn't want them doing those things, I dare say they wouldn't have recieved the same punishment.


I could be wrong.

I dare say that most sinners don't realize they are in sin until they are in Christ or close to it. You don't have to be knowledgeable of a sin to be guilty of that sin.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

I dare say that most sinners don't realize they are in sin until they are in Christ or close to it. You don't have to be knowledgeable of a sin to be guilty of that sin.

-washboard

I disagree.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Every person alive has a conscience.


Of course, knowing it and admitting it are two different things.

[mat1583]

I disagree.

Why do you disagree? Little children do not even know what a sin is until they are taught. They don't realize that even little white lies are sinful. A lot of Christians I know don't realize that gossip is sinful or even when they are gossiping. There are plenty of examples I could post of cases where a person doesn't realize they are sinning.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

Why do you disagree? Little children do not even know what a sin is until they are taught. They don't realize that even little white lies are sinful. A lot of Christians I know don't realize that gossip is sinful or even when they are gossiping. There are plenty of examples I could post of cases where a person doesn't realize they are sinning.

-washboard

I disagree because I have experienced life as much as the next person, and I can honestly say I've never done anything wrong in my life without realizing on some level that it was wrong. Not to mention the bible says so, as I quoted.

And I disagree with your examples in this post too. I do believe a child knows that lying is wrong. I also believe that everyone knows that gossip is wrong.

[mat1583]

I disagree because I have experienced life as much as the next person, and I can honestly say I've never done anything wrong in my life without realizing on some level that it was wrong. Not to mention the bible says so, as I quoted.

When did you learn it was wrong to curse, or was it just inherently in your mind? I didn't know I wasn't supposed to say the word "sh*t" until my mom slapped me on the butt for saying it.


And I disagree with your examples in this post too. I do believe a child knows that lying is wrong. I also believe that everyone knows that gossip is wrong.

Even if you can truthfully claim that everyone knows that gossip is wrong, you can't claim that every single person knows exactly when they are gossiping. I didn't even realize it till the past couple of years. And the only reason I found out gluttony is sinful is because of that one movie a while back. If you know whether or not every single action you carry out is sin or not, PLEASE give me some of that knowledge.

edit: We have discussions on here all the time about whether (insert action) is sinful or not. Just look at the divorce/remarriage thread. There are people that have admitted that they don't know if they are living in sin or not. They could be living in sin and not even know it. How can you disagree with that?

-washboard

[Valpo]

Let's take a look at this:

Mark of the beast is symbolically 666 right? The beast being the Devil, ol Satan himself. Question, Is anything and everything not of God, of the devil? If everything not of God is of the devil this would include unbelief. And the "mark" of the beast would be UNBELIEF whether or not they were/are consciously following the devil. For example, Wiccans always say they do not worship Satan, but as Christians we know they certainly are not worshipping the one true God, therefore their worship is of the beast. They are marked by the beast in their unbelief. Christians are not going to be tricked into some big gov't or corporation scam by getting branded with a chip or physical mark. And if a Christian consciously chose to have a micro chip in them this does not make them an unbeliever. The mark of the beast is worshipping anything consciously or sub/unconsciously that is not of the one true God. It has nothing to do with a microchip in human beings.

Pretty simple, if one does not believe they do not carry the mark of Christ with them, they carry the mark of the beast.

[mat1583]

And if a Christian consciously chose to have a micro chip in them this does not make them an unbeliever.

This is important to note. I can think of a few good examples of why it would be very beneficial for a person to have an implanted chip. One could easily store a full medical history on the chip or at least some information regarding pre-existing conditions such as epilepsy or diabetes. This information could help save a Christian's life.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

When did you learn it was wrong to curse, or was it just inherently in your mind? I didn't know I wasn't supposed to say the word "sh*t" until my mom slapped me on the butt for saying it.



Even if you can truthfully claim that everyone knows that gossip is wrong, you can't claim that every single person knows exactly when they are gossiping. I didn't even realize it till the past couple of years. And the only reason I found out gluttony is sinful is because of that one movie a while back. If you know whether or not every single action you carry out is sin or not, PLEASE give me some of that knowledge.

edit: We have discussions on here all the time about whether (insert action) is sinful or not. Just look at the divorce/remarriage thread. There are people that have admitted that they don't know if they are living in sin or not. They could be living in sin and not even know it. How can you disagree with that?

-washboard

I stand by what I said.

If you would address the verse I quoted, it would probably be more productive than arguing about personal experiences, which vary greatly.

[middletree]

When did you learn it was wrong to curse, or was it just inherently in your mind? I didn't know I wasn't supposed to say the word "sh*t" until my mom slapped me on the butt for saying it.



Even if you can truthfully claim that everyone knows that gossip is wrong, you can't claim that every single person knows exactly when they are gossiping. I didn't even realize it till the past couple of years. And the only reason I found out gluttony is sinful is because of that one movie a while back. If you know whether or not every single action you carry out is sin or not, PLEASE give me some of that knowledge.

edit: We have discussions on here all the time about whether (insert action) is sinful or not. Just look at the divorce/remarriage thread. There are people that have admitted that they don't know if they are living in sin or not. They could be living in sin and not even know it. How can you disagree with that?

-washboard
You've been making one of my central points, you know. Another example is when Abram and his wife Sarai lied and caused a king (Pharaoh, perhaps?) to sin when he took her for his wife. All kinds of calamity came on him, and he had no way to know he was sinning. I think that was around Genesis 12 or so, but cannot look it up right now.

[Musicdude]

You've been making one of my central points, you know. Another example is when Abram and his wife Sarai lied and caused a king (Pharaoh, perhaps?) to sin when he took her for his wife. All kinds of calamity came on him, and he had no way to know he was sinning. I think that was around Genesis 12 or so, but cannot look it up right now.

But did he go to hell because of it?

If I am not mistaken, those who take the mark of the beast perish for eternity.

[mat1583]

I stand by what I said.

If you would address the verse I quoted, it would probably be more productive than arguing about personal experiences, which vary greatly.

Which one? I haven't seen one since this side discussion started.

How about this one?

Luke 23:
33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

-washboard

[mat1583]

You've been making one of my central points, you know. Another example is when Abram and his wife Sarai lied and caused a king (Pharaoh, perhaps?) to sin when he took her for his wife. All kinds of calamity came on him, and he had no way to know he was sinning. I think that was around Genesis 12 or so, but cannot look it up right now.

I never disagreed that one can sin without knowing they are sinning. I have just disagreed that Christians will not realize that they are taking the Mark, and thus condemning them to Hell.

-washboard

[Valpo]

I never disagreed that one can sin without knowing they are sinning. I have just disagreed that Christians will not realize that they are taking the Mark, and thus condemning them to Hell.

-washboard

yeah, worlds apart of a difference

[middletree]

I never disagreed that one can sin without knowing they are sinning. I have just disagreed that Christians will not realize that they are taking the Mark, and thus condemning them to Hell.

-washboard
And that's where we disagree.

[Valpo]

And that's where we disagree.

Based on what do you believe that? People go to hell on account of a lack of faith, faith, and faith. Having a microchip placed in them does not condemn them to hell. The microchip thing is pretty much a moot point anyway because that is not the mark of the beast. God is consistent, yesterday, and today, and tomorrow people go to hell on account of not having faith, some time in the future God is not going to change his ways and make some goofy Microsoft computer chip be the downfall of his people. The mark is unbelief and will always be unbelief. Unbelievers going to hell is the only thing supported by scripture, not some big corporation computer chip in someone's hand or forehead.

[cheewiee]

Based on what do you believe that? People go to hell on account of a lack of faith, faith, and faith. Having a microchip placed in them does not condemn them to hell. The microchip thing is pretty much a moot point anyway because that is not the mark of the beast. God is consistent, yesterday, and today, and tomorrow people go to hell on account of not having faith, some time in the future God is not going to change his ways and make some goofy Microsoft computer chip be the downfall of his people. The mark is unbelief and will always be unbelief. Unbelievers going to hell is the only thing supported by scripture, not some big corporation computer chip in someone's hand or forehead.

So, how would unbelief facilitate commerce, Revelation is clear that one will not be able to buy or sell without the mark.

[mat1583]

So, how would unbelief facilitate commerce, Revelation is clear that one will not be able to buy or sell without the mark.

Is it clear? What verses are you referring to specifically?

And I could be wrong, but I don't think he means that the mark is only an abstract idea (belief) but that those who take the mark take it because of their unbelief (in Christ), whereas Christians will know not to receive the Mark because of their faith in Christ.

-washboard

[Valpo]

So, how would unbelief facilitate commerce, Revelation is clear that one will not be able to buy or sell without the mark.

Mark could be anything really, could even be a chip I guess in the grand scheme of things, but I highly doubt it, because remember originally John was writing this to an immediate audience, not people in the year 2008. So the mark probably would have been something that applied to them in that day that still very well could apply today. Graeco-Roman religions had tattoos and weird physical markings. Our seals as Christians are on our foreheads, being marked by the cross of Christ. So a follower of the beast could have that mark of their forehead, or as an alternative their right hand, which would signify that the activities of the person are done with the sanction of the beast and at his direction. I guess only those with the mark of the beast could legally make a livelihood in commerce and transact earthly affairs. The saints of God on earth do not have such a seal, meaning that God will not necessarily protect their earthly affairs and their pursuit of livelihood, even when they abide by the laws of the state. Instead, they will be hindered and persecuted while they live on this earth.

[Valpo]

Is it clear? What verses are you referring to specifically?

And I could be wrong, but I don't think he means that the mark is only an abstract idea (belief) but that those who take the mark take it because of their unbelief (in Christ), whereas Christians will know not to receive the Mark because of their faith in Christ.

-washboard

right on

[pamcharlie]

Did you see the russell crowe movie a beautiful mind there is a scene in which his character is outside some place and he starts to dig into his arm to discover that he has mircochip implant

[clemsontigers23]

When did you learn it was wrong to curse, or was it just inherently in your mind? I didn't know I wasn't supposed to say the word "sh*t" until my mom slapped me on the butt for saying it.



Even if you can truthfully claim that everyone knows that gossip is wrong, you can't claim that every single person knows exactly when they are gossiping. I didn't even realize it till the past couple of years. And the only reason I found out gluttony is sinful is because of that one movie a while back. If you know whether or not every single action you carry out is sin or not, PLEASE give me some of that knowledge.

edit: We have discussions on here all the time about whether (insert action) is sinful or not. Just look at the divorce/remarriage thread. There are people that have admitted that they don't know if they are living in sin or not. They could be living in sin and not even know it. How can you disagree with that?

-washboard

Hehe, that reminds me of how I used to cuss like crazy when I was a little kid because I was around it a lot. I didn't think anything of it, so I disagree that Christians can't do something wrong without realizing it. I remember when I downloaded music I thought nothing of it until a few months ago. It's possible to sin and not know you're sinning.

[Pouye]

Of course, we will have to wait and see.

The mark is a tangible expression of an allegiance to the ruler of this world his entire system -- which affects economics, etc.


"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12

Jesus said: "They [my disciples] are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

We will just have to wait and see, but this wouldn't be the first time in history that people were physically marked for an evil purpose. It could start out voluntary and end up being forced later. "Forced" (or "caused") does not mean somebody holding you down physically or anything like that. In the context of Revelation 13, it is linked to "buying and selling". How it is forced/caused is you have no way to make a living without it. That is how it is forced. If you are willing not to have a dime to your name, you don't have to get the mark.

Again, the whole RFID chip process is focusing on identification and transactions. Because of this, it very likely the precursor to the mark of the beast, which I don't want to have any part of. As I have said, for the past 20 years I have been predicting this -- and it is finally coming to fruition. I believe it is a sign of the troubled times we are living in. People are talking more and more about "Peace and Safety" these days!:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."
1 Thess. 5:1

Call me a kook, I don't care.

Rock

[Evanescence]

I'm back !!!!!!

RFID chips?????

Let's dance !!!!!!!!!!!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Valpo]

I'm back !!!!!!

RFID chips?????

Let's dance !!!!!!!!!!!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

Hey, be sure to condemn the band for performing at the 2004 Republican National Convention when you get a chance. Someone started a thread about their involvement in there. And while you're at it, Third Day is going over to support the troops in Iraq by performing for them. Be sure to condemn them for that too!

Good to have you back

[Pouye]

Thanks for those warm words that facilitate friendly discussion.

-washboard

I apologize that this came off rudely. At the same time, me being self-assured about this doesn't make me right, either. Being self-assured does not make either person right or wrong. I have what I feel are good and justified reasons to believe that this technology could be the precursor of the mark of the beast. You have the right to tell me why you do not think so, and be self-assured that it most certainly is not anything related to such an end-time event. That is your prerogative, and you have a right to your opinions.

Me saying, "Is SO!" and you saying "Is NOT!" cannot in any way shape the future of what will actually prove to be true or not. That was my point.

Rock

[pamcharlie]

I remember at a class i ws at there was this girl who said that her pastor has the footage of a family getting the mark when i heard this i thought oh please leave the mark alone and concentrate on talking to people about jesus

[Evanescence]

Hey, be sure to condemn the band for performing at the 2004 Republican National Convention when you get a chance. Someone started a thread about their involvement in there. And while you're at it, Third Day is going over to support the troops in Iraq by performing for them. Be sure to condemn them for that too!

Good to have you back

They're all in it together !!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D

[Musicdude]

Hehe, that reminds me of how I used to cuss like crazy when I was a little kid because I was around it a lot. I didn't think anything of it, so I disagree that Christians can't do something wrong without realizing it. I remember when I downloaded music I thought nothing of it until a few months ago. It's possible to sin and not know you're sinning.

And I don't believe you were sinning by simply repeating others as a child.

It's the attitude behind cursing that is sinful, not the words themselves. Sin always starts with an attitude, and sometimes ends with an action.

[Musicdude]

Being self-assured does not make either person right or wrong.

If it did, I would always be right! :D

[cheewiee]

Is it clear? What verses are you referring to specifically?

And I could be wrong, but I don't think he means that the mark is only an abstract idea (belief) but that those who take the mark take it because of their unbelief (in Christ), whereas Christians will know not to receive the Mark because of their faith in Christ.

-washboard

16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

16And he causes all, (AU)the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a (AV)mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the (AW)mark, either (AX)the name of the beast or (AY)the number of his name.


16Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,[e](AC) to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is,(AD) the name of the beast or(AE) the number of its name.

16 He required everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. 17 And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


So above is the same two verses taken from an assortment of translations, all pretty much tie the ability to engage in commerce (The buying and selling of goods) to this mark, what ever it is...

[mat1583]

So above is the same two verses taken from an assortment of translations, all pretty much tie the ability to engage in commerce (The buying and selling of goods) to this mark, what ever it is...

Thank you very much! I wasn't really trying to question you. I just like to see verses when someone says that the Bible is clear about something. Oftentimes such clarity isn't present.

-washboard

[mat1583]

I apologize that this came off rudely. At the same time, me being self-assured about this doesn't make me right, either. Being self-assured does not make either person right or wrong. I have what I feel are good and justified reasons to believe that this technology could be the precursor of the mark of the beast. You have the right to tell me why you do not think so, and be self-assured that it most certainly is not anything related to such an end-time event. That is your prerogative, and you have a right to your opinions.

Me saying, "Is SO!" and you saying "Is NOT!" cannot in any way shape the future of what will actually prove to be true or not. That was my point.

Rock

Apology accepted, and I'm sure that you didn't mean anything rude from the post. Revelation just happens to have some of the most diverse interpretations out of all the Bible. You made a very good point!

-washboard

[Musicdude]

So above is the same two verses taken from an assortment of translations, all pretty much tie the ability to engage in commerce (The buying and selling of goods) to this mark, what ever it is...

Also from what I just read in those verses, it seems that the mark of the beast will be mandatory for everyone.
This chip is not mandatory (at least not yet).
This chip is also not a name or a number. If it did have sort of ID number, it would have to be different for every person, so as to distinguish them, so it can't be the number of the beast.

I really have a hard time believing this prophecy is anything other than literal, since there are no textual reasons to assume it is allegorical. I'm sure someone will chime in with the statment that "revelation is full of allegories." But it does contain quite a bit of literal truthes also.

[cheewiee]

Thank you very much! I wasn't really trying to question you. I just like to see verses when someone says that the Bible is clear about something. Oftentimes such clarity isn't present.

-washboard

Yea, I understand. I posted so many translations because I didn't want to be accused of cherry picking one version over another to favor my personal view of scripture.

[middletree]

This chip is not mandatory (at least not yet).


Is too. That's what this news story is about, the reason I made this thread. It's proposed to be mandatory for prisoners, and there are some mentions in there about patients.

[mat1583]

Is too. That's what this news story is about, the reason I made this thread. It's proposed to be mandatory for prisoners, and there are some mentions in there about patients.

heh, a proposal does not mean it is mandatory yet. We'll have to wait and see.

-washboard

[middletree]

heh, a proposal does not mean it is mandatory yet. We'll have to wait and see.

-washboard

Of course. That kind of goes without saying. The point is that Wayne said this cannot be the mark, for several reasons, and one of this reasons is that it isn't mandatory. I debated him on that point, specifically, with my retort that the mandatory nature of this proposal is exactly why I created this thread.

[mat1583]

Of course. That kind of goes without saying. The point is that Wayne said this cannot be the mark, for several reasons, and one of this reasons is that it isn't mandatory. I debated him on that point, specifically, with my retort that the mandatory nature of this proposal is exactly why I created this thread.

It could be made mandatory some prisoners, but just as much as ankle bracelets for convicts on probation or house arrest. Why haven't ankle bracelets raised the same concern?

-washboard

[faithingod]

please people! no matter what shape the mark takes the fate of those who take it is spelled out right there! go read it! if youre a christian your faith should keep you out of that mess!

[cheewiee]

It could be made mandatory some prisoners, but just as much as ankle bracelets for convicts on probation or house arrest. Why haven't ankle bracelets raised the same concern?

-washboard

Because I can take an ankle bracelet off...

[mat1583]

Because I can take an ankle bracelet off...

When taken off, it alerts the authorities. Otherwise what's the point? I can cut out or get someone else to cut out an RFID chip.

-washboard

[cheewiee]

When taken off, it alerts the authorities. Otherwise what's the point? I can cut out or get someone else to cut out an RFID chip.

-washboard


So the scripture I posted, says the mark is on the forhead or hand (Rock made the point that it could be the whole arm)

But I digress... If somone doesn't want to wear the ankle bracelet they don't have to... They may not get the opportunity for house arrest, as that is typically one of the conditions... but it is still their choice...

[mat1583]

So the scripture I posted, says the mark is on the forhead or hand (Rock made the point that it could be the whole arm)

But I digress... If somone doesn't want to wear the ankle bracelet they don't have to... They may not get the opportunity for house arrest, as that is typically one of the conditions... but it is still their choice...

How is it a choice? The bracelets are court ordered monitoring devices as a term for probationary periods for alcohol offenders (drunk drivers). Instead of periodic, mandatory drug/alcohol tests some municipalities have started using the ankle bracelets as a mandatory monitoring device for those on probation.

-washboard

[middletree]

The bracelets don't meet the scriptural requirements of being a cut and placed in the arm(hand) like chips do. I'm not sure what you are getting at by bringing up the bracelets. Then again, I am the only person here who says Christians are not under the Ten Commandments, so I have no credibility. ....

[mat1583]

The bracelets don't meet the scriptural requirements of being a cut and placed in the arm(hand) like chips do. I'm not sure what you are getting at by bringing up the bracelets. Then again, I am the only person here who says Christians are not under the Ten Commandments, so I have no credibility. ....

I know they don't meet the requirements of a cut, but they are a precursor to similar devices. Think about it...our judicial system makes the use of ankle bracelets mandatory in a certain population of convicts. These devices can monitor blood alcohol content and track your exact location by GPS. Not only that, but I'm sure a mic could easily be added to record voice. Introducing ankle bracelets was an easy thing to do. They were used for a period of time for people to get use to them - to accept them. And now the UK wants to switch over to RFID chips. They make it seem like a small step and cite the currently acceptable use of ankle bracelets. If you consider it, it is a rather small step.

I'm just pointing out that it seems like a lot of people were so surprised by this. How can you be so surprised when ankle bracelets have already been in use, and the RFID chips have been around for so long? It always starts out as seeming so harmless...

-washboard

[Musicdude]

Is too. That's what this news story is about, the reason I made this thread. It's proposed to be mandatory for prisoners, and there are some mentions in there about patients.

According to Revelation it will be mandatory for every person on the face of the earth, not just prisoners. Even if this proposal goes through, it still will not have fulfilled that prophecy.

[cheewiee]

According to Revelation it will be mandatory for every person on the face of the earth, not just prisoners. Even if this proposal goes through, it still will not have fulfilled that prophecy.

Who's to say that it can't be instituted in waves? First Prisoners, then patients, then students, then everyone...

[Musicdude]

Who's to say that it can't be instituted in waves? First Prisoners, then patients, then students, then everyone...

I won't say that it couldn't be done in waves, but I'll just say as it is right now, if I took it I would not be concerned for my eternal life.

[faithingod]

I won't say that it couldn't be done in waves, but I'll just say as it is right now, if I took it I would not be concerned for my eternal life.

right now it is not a threat... but just be aware! do not let it over power your thoughts ... but remember how close we truely are to the end at all times! we have no idea when or where it will begin ... but we know how it ends! lets avoid it at all costs!

[Musicdude]

So the scripture I posted, says the mark is on the forhead or hand (Rock made the point that it could be the whole arm)

But I digress... If somone doesn't want to wear the ankle bracelet they don't have to... They may not get the opportunity for house arrest, as that is typically one of the conditions... but it is still their choice...

Not to nitpick (oh who am I kidding, I love to nitpick :D ) but if we are going to be that specific about the location of the mark according to scripture, then why are we ignoring the scriptural details given about the nature of the mark? Because scripture makes it pretty clear that it is the name or the number of the beast, and it even says what that number is.

[Musicdude]

right now it is not a threat... but just be aware! do not let it over power your thoughts ... but remember how close we truely are to the end at all times! we have no idea when or where it will begin ... but we know how it ends! lets avoid it at all costs!

Paul thought the end was near also, look how long it has been since he said that. "Near" could be 5 thousand more years for all we know. Compared to eternity, that's not a long time.

I will stay on gaurd though.

[Valpo]

Why do we Christians worry about this mark?

Just keep our eyes focused on the cross and we're fine. And share this story of great love with others!

[cheewiee]

Not to nitpick (oh who am I kidding, I love to nitpick :D ) but if we are going to be that specific about the location of the mark according to scripture, then why are we ignoring the scriptural details given about the nature of the mark? Because scripture makes it pretty clear that it is the name or the number of the beast, and it even says what that number is.

So certainly we can be clear that it is the name or the number of the beast..

But for all we know the Antichrist is some dude named Robert Franklyn Indigo Davis..

[middletree]

Ronald Wilson Reagan.

6 letters in each name.

think about it :)

[Musicdude]

So certainly we can be clear that it is the name or the number of the beast..

But for all we know the Antichrist is some dude named Robert Franklyn Indigo Davis..

I'm just saying you guys will nitpick about the fact that it's not on the leg but the arm (or forhead) according to scripture, but will generalize the crap out of the other details. Like for example, when any government leader requires me to tattoo his name on my arm, I am going to be suspicious. However, I can see you rationalizing that this chip happened to be made by a guy who's name has 6 letters in each name, etc, when scripture clearly states that the name IS the mark.


Think about this, what if the anti-christ has a girlfriend as a young man and she tattoos his name on her arm, but she is a Christian. Then after he rises to power and she gets the tattoo removed, will God still condemn her? :D
j/k

[Musicdude]

Ronald Wilson Reagan.

6 letters in each name.

think about it :)

You speak blasphemy! :D j/k

[clemsontigers23]

Why do we Christians worry about this mark?

Just keep our eyes focused on the cross and we're fine. And share this story of great love with others!

Christians shouldn't worry about it, but we were given Revelation for a reason. We need to be aware of how different events are fulfilling that prophecy.

[Musicdude]

Why do we Christians worry about this mark?

Just keep our eyes focused on the cross and we're fine. And share this story of great love with others!

Well, personally speaking I am not going to be here when all this stuff goes down (I'll either be dead or raptured by then), so it really makes no difference to me. I am just curious.

[clemsontigers23]

Well, personally speaking I am not going to be here when all this stuff goes down (I'll either be dead or raptured by then), so it really makes no difference to me. I am just curious.

Or will you? ;)

That's an entirely different discussion, though. :P

[Musicdude]

Or will you? ;)

That's an entirely different discussion, though. :P

Though I am very confident about this, I mainly said it to start crap. :D

[Andi]

Though I am very confident about this, I mainly said it to start crap. :D

There you go again - starting something!

Welcome back by the way...we missed you when you were off getting married and honeymooning, etc.

[mat1583]

Welcome back by the way...we missed you when you were off getting married and honeymooning, etc.

I totally forgot about that (not on purpose). Congrats, Musicdude. And how was it? :)

-washboard

[cheewiee]

Ronald Wilson Reagan.

6 letters in each name.

think about it :)

The Jewish Character for 6 looks like a W...

666

WWW


Egads.... :eek:


(I know that it doesn't really work that way... Just building on the whole Ronald Wilson Reagan thing...

[HotWireD]

When taken off, it alerts the authorities. Otherwise what's the point? I can cut out or get someone else to cut out an RFID chip.

-washboard

No need to cut it out.

There are already websites that explain how to make a device that 'fries' a RFID chip.

[Evanescence]

The Real ID act has been pushed back but WILL be implemented....a buddy of mine who is in politics, said the fed Govt will start stripping the states financial backing and other forms of manipulation for those that oppose it. Sooner or later it will be nationwide. Once hackers figure out how to cheat the ID, chips will become common and even hip. The computer generation will be all for it.

Military, old folks homes and prisoners will be first...for mandatory.....then hospitals from HMOs and the health care paranoia they force on the hingeheads in society....

And to think, so much of this goes back to 911 and the war on terror...

imagine that...

[cheewiee]

The Real ID act has been pushed back but WILL be implemented....a buddy of mine who is in politics, said the fed Govt will start stripping the states financial backing and other forms of manipulation for those that oppose it. Sooner or later it will be nationwide. Once hackers figure out how to cheat the ID, chips will become common and even hip. The computer generation will be all for it.

Military, old folks homes and prisoners will be first...for mandatory.....then hospitals from HMOs and the health care paranoia they force on the hingeheads in society....

And to think, so much of this goes back to 911 and the war on terror...

imagine that...
National Identification cards predate 9-11 by atleast one presidency, and was pushed on capital hill by a present Presidental Candidate...

[Pouye]

Not to nitpick (oh who am I kidding, I love to nitpick :D ) but if we are going to be that specific about the location of the mark according to scripture, then why are we ignoring the scriptural details given about the nature of the mark? Because scripture makes it pretty clear that it is the name or the number of the beast, and it even says what that number is.

Actually, the Scriptures do not give the number explicitly. It is to be calculated, and it takes wisdom to do the calculation. The explicit number given is actually most likely "616" (and not 666 like many translations say), but that is besides the point. The wording strongly suggests that 616 or 666 is the starting point for the calculation, not the finished product.

Rock

[Musicdude]

Actually, the Scriptures do not give the number explicitly. It is to be calculated, and it takes wisdom to do the calculation. The explicit number given is actually most likely "616" (and not 666 like many translations say), but that is besides the point. The wording strongly suggests that 616 or 666 is the starting point for the calculation, not the finished product.

Rock

Unless my translation is way off (NASB), it sure looks like the number is given.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

I did read a commentary that talked about 616, so I see where that came from. But either way, it looks like the number is given in the verse.


Another thing I just noticed as reading my bible notes, but had forgotten about until now. The "beast" is not a person, and it's not Satan. It's actually a nation, the revived Roman empire, no?

So maybe the mark is going to be "SPQR" ?

[Musicdude]

There you go again - starting something!

Welcome back by the way...we missed you when you were off getting married and honeymooning, etc.

Awww, thanks. :)

[Musicdude]

I totally forgot about that (not on purpose). Congrats, Musicdude. And how was it? :)

-washboard

Thanks. It was awesome!! We were snow-bunnies for a week, then lounged around the house opening presents for another week. :D

The wedding was beautiful, and the bride even moreso!

It's good to have life back to normal though. I'm glad all that stress is behind us now.

[middletree]

It's actually a nation, the revived Roman empire, no?

A lot of people believe that, but it's not clear in Scripture. It's not definitive.

[cheewiee]

So what if the beast described in Revelation, is an literal beast????
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article3204128.ece

[clemsontigers23]

National Identification cards predate 9-11 by atleast one presidency, and was pushed on capital hill by a present Presidental Candidate...

Which one? Hillary? McCain?

[cheewiee]

Which one? Hillary? McCain?

It was Hillary in 1993, in her presentation of her National Healthcare Plan before Congress.... Last time she did that, the Republicans won control of the House AND Senate....

[Valpo]

Which one? Hillary? McCain?

McCain? Who are you rush limbaugh?

[clemsontigers23]

McCain? Who are you rush limbaugh?

I only put McCain because he's been a senator for so long. It would have shocked me had it been him. I'm not shocked that it's Hillary.

[Pouye]

Unless my translation is way off (NASB), it sure looks like the number is given.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

I did read a commentary that talked about 616, so I see where that came from. But either way, it looks like the number is given in the verse.


Another thing I just noticed as reading my bible notes, but had forgotten about until now. The "beast" is not a person, and it's not Satan. It's actually a nation, the revived Roman empire, no?

So maybe the mark is going to be "SPQR" ?

"And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. Wisdom is needed to understand this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666 (or 616)."

Again, why would you need wisdom to solve the number if it is given?

"Then he said to me, “This fourth beast is the fourth world power that will rule the earth. It will be different from all the others. It will devour the whole world, trampling everything in its path. Its ten horns are ten kings that will rule that empire."
Daniel 7:23-

This is the Greco-Roman Empire. The European Union would be the modern equivelent of this empire.

Also, I find it interesting that much symbolism used in the European Union is Greco-Roman, and you will find in that symbolism what looks like a "harlot" riding on a beast. The flag of the EU has twelve stars in a circle -- their number representing perfection. Ironically, it is twelve stars in a circle that also represents the nation Israel in its prophetic relationship with Christ (see Rev. 12:1).

Rock

[Aussie3rddayfan]

It's inevitability at work. I wrote a paper about RFID chips last year for a computer ethics course. My research into the matter was pretty discouraging. We're basically just a few steps away from tracking everyone, everywhere. The Patriot Act didn't help matters any.

-washboard

One does not lead to the other. The Government cannot simply legislate that their people have to be implanted with a microchip. The people wouldn't stand for it.

[Evanescence]

One does not lead to the other. The Government cannot simply legislate that their people have to be implanted with a microchip. The people wouldn't stand for it.

They will if the Govt instills fear in the Sheeple....

People today now embrace video cameras everywhere, schools locked down, kids getting patted down, breatalizers in schools, excessive ID EVEN the idea of RFID chips in people,.. etc etc.

"Anything to keep us safe...."

One more "911" and the mindless Sheeple will BEG to have the Govt help them...keep them safe etc etc.

Sheep going to the slaughter....

Bite on this:

"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government."

Henry Kissinger- secretly taped in Switerland- 1992

Who was HK? One of the most powerful politicians in the US, worked for several administrations....and a known and proud Globalist.

And.....was appointed by Bush to oversee the 911 commission.

Gee...imagine that....

[Musicdude]

"And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. Wisdom is needed to understand this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666 (or 616)."

Again, why would you need wisdom to solve the number if it is given?

"Then he said to me, “This fourth beast is the fourth world power that will rule the earth. It will be different from all the others. It will devour the whole world, trampling everything in its path. Its ten horns are ten kings that will rule that empire."
Daniel 7:23-

This is the Greco-Roman Empire. The European Union would be the modern equivelent of this empire.

Also, I find it interesting that much symbolism used in the European Union is Greco-Roman, and you will find in that symbolism what looks like a "harlot" riding on a beast. The flag of the EU has twelve stars in a circle -- their number representing perfection. Ironically, it is twelve stars in a circle that also represents the nation Israel in its prophetic relationship with Christ (see Rev. 12:1).

Rock

Interesting points.

Is it possible that the verse is saying that it takes wisdom to understand the significance of the number? Because if what you're saying is true, it seems conflicting. "You must calculate the number of the beast" and "the number is six hundred sixty-six" in the same sentence?

Maybe "calculate" means more like cypher, or scrutinize.
The number six has significance in the bible. The number 3 also has significance in the bible. Those two numbers together probably have significance as well. But if you don't have very much "biblical wisdom" you wouldn't know that.

Just an idea.

[Evanescence]

In my opinion the Bible is clear enough to stay away from it...

BUT....even an atheist, buddist or Muslim should ahve the common sense to know that this is an invasion of privacy and absurdity to the highest...

Bible aside, who the heck wants to have a COMPUTER chip in them? Not me...I'll disappear into the wilds of Canada before it happens....its not even a thought...

[mat1583]

Bible aside, who the heck wants to have a COMPUTER chip in them? Not me...I'll disappear into the wilds of Canada before it happens....its not even a thought...

As I've said before, there are probably quite a few people who could possibly benefit from having a chip under their skin - extreme diabetics, epileptics, those with extreme allergies and anybody with an existing medical condition that may render them unconscious or unable to provide EMTs with an acute medical history. EMTs could quickly scan for a chip and know what their dealing with in seconds, possibly saving lives at the same time. I guarantee that after prisoners, this will be the population that the makers of the chip will start marketing to - if they aren't already.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

In my opinion the Bible is clear enough to stay away from it...

BUT....even an atheist, buddist or Muslim should ahve the common sense to know that this is an invasion of privacy and absurdity to the highest...

Bible aside, who the heck wants to have a COMPUTER chip in them? Not me...I'll disappear into the wilds of Canada before it happens....its not even a thought...

Have you ever seen Minority Report, with Tom Cruise?

That's what comes to mind, when I think of this chip thing. The difference is they used your eyes, to track you in that movie. So there were places you could go to get your eyes swapped out for someone else's.

If this chip becomes mandatory, I'm sure there will be places you can go to get your chip wiped out, or whatever. But the problem is, if you do that, you will be off the map at that point. Yes, no one can track you anymore, but also you can't buy anything anymore either, so you'd better learn how to grow your own veggies, and raise your own livestock. I'm sure there will be communities which live off the land, since they have rejected the mark.

Pretty wild stuff.



As far as good points about the chip. Think about people who have travelled to other countries, and then lost their passport (or had it stolen), and they were stuck in this country and couldn't go home. With the chip, there would be nothing for you to lose. They could just scan your arm, and quickly find out that you were a valid citizen, and let you through.

No one could steal your credit card info. Identity theft would be a thing of the past. etc.

[mat1583]

Identity theft would be a thing of the past. etc.

Actually, RFID chips are not a valid form of identification unless accompanied with at least one other source of biometrics (fingerprints, eye analysis, etc.) In and of themselves, RFID chips can only be used to store bits of information. Even if they were used for buying and selling, you would still be required to produce some kind of biometric identification to identify who you really are.

Identity theft could also actually increase if such information were stored on the chip, especially if the thieves are able to decrypt the information stored on it. That's the problem with the chips now. You can rig up a scanner from home that could read from an RFID chip.

-washboard

[Musicdude]

You can rig up a scanner from home that could read from an RFID chip.

-washboard

I doubt it would be quite that easy. Maybe they could have a system in place where they could wirelessly update them from time to time, so hackers would keep having to start over again.

[mat1583]

I doubt it would be quite that easy. Maybe they could have a system in place where they could wirelessly update them from time to time, so hackers would keep having to start over again.

It wouldn't be easy for the simpleton, but anyone with a background in electronics or engineering could figure it out pretty easily - and once one person figures it out and posts a how-to online...well, you get the point:
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/ccg/resources/wearableRFID.html

-washboard

[Andi]

......I guarantee that after prisoners, this will be the population that the makers of the chip will start marketing to - if they aren't already.

-washboard


I might want one for if I've fallen and can't get up. :o :eek:


All seriousness though - I am with E on this. If it came down to it - we would be out of here and living off the land somewhere in tim-buck-two.

This is an instance where being married to a "man of the great outdoors" will really come in handy. Time for me to get out the reference books on outdoor life. ;)

[sandyandporter]

I might want one for if I've fallen and can't get up. :o :eek:


All seriousness though - I am with E on this. If it came down to it - we would be out of here and living off the land somewhere in tim-buck-two.

This is an instance where being married to a "man of the great outdoors" will really come in handy. Time for me to get out the reference books on outdoor life. ;)

Make room for me sis!

[Valpo]

I'll disappear into the wilds of Canada before it happens....its not even a thought...

Can we get this in writing?

[sandyandporter]

Can we get this in writing?

ROFL! :P

[HotWireD]

Can we get this in writing?

If E states he will go hide in Canada, I imagine he will actually be going somewhere else... I cannot see E telling 'Them' where he is actually going. :)

I guess Mexico or the mountains of Peru (just putting 'Them' off the scent mate).

[sandyandporter]

If E states he will go hide in Canada, I imagine he will actually be going somewhere else... I cannot see E telling 'Them' where he is actually going. :)

I guess Mexico or the mountains of Peru (just putting 'Them' off the scent mate).

You have a point. What if we just get it in writing that he promises to disappear? ;)

[HotWireD]

You have a point. What if we just get it in writing that he promises to disappear? ;)

lol - I do not want him to disappear - where will I be able to hide - I was planning on renting his tool shed.

[Evanescence]

Can we get this in writing?

Dreaming are we?

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Andi]

Y'all are soooo cute when you play!

[sandyandporter]

Y'all are soooo cute when you play!

Don't encourage them! ;)

[Pouye]

Don't encourage them! ;)

Like that'll work! :rolleyes:

Don't worry, E cooks up a MEAN beaver stew -- and we could all live off of his trappings for years! Hey, do you all want to go in together for some of these? We could all live together in the Canadian wilderness in a great Jesus Freak, anti-RFID-chip hippie commune:

[Andi]

Like that'll work! :rolleyes:

Don't worry, E cooks up a MEAN beaver stew -- and we could all live off of his trappings for years! Hey, do you all want to go in together for some of these? We could all live together in the Canadian wilderness in a great Jesus Freak, anti-RFID-chip hippie commune:

This made my night.....ROFL

Baahhhhhwaaahhhhhhhh !!! :P :D :P

[Yippy]

Hey, do you all want to go in together for some of these? We could all live together in the Canadian wilderness in a great Jesus Freak, anti-RFID-chip hippie commune:

Been there, done that long, long ago. I so appreciate daily showers, hygiene in general, heat, toilets...You all go and have fun without me...:cool:

[Pouye]

Been there, done that long, long ago. I so appreciate daily showers, hygiene in general, heat, toilets...You all go and have fun without me...:cool:

But... Diane! We were all counting on your vast experience to get us through the harsh winters. Now what are we going to do? Tell you what... I'll build you a toilet with a solar seat warmer -- and a bucket shower like the one shown below. Deal?

[sandyandporter]

Like that'll work! :rolleyes:

Don't worry, E cooks up a MEAN beaver stew -- and we could all live off of his trappings for years! Hey, do you all want to go in together for some of these? We could all live together in the Canadian wilderness in a great Jesus Freak, anti-RFID-chip hippie commune:

Well.... as long as we build suitable showers/toilets. Oh and no bugs, snakes or anything else icky. Other than that I'm in! That chip is starting to look pretty good! :eek:

[Yippy]

But... Diane! We were all counting on your vast experience to get us through the harsh winters. Now what are we going to do?
I don't know what you are going to do, but I'll be sitting INSIDE a house by one of these like any smart person...:D

[Pouye]

I don't know what you are going to do, but I'll be sitting INSIDE a house by one of these like any smart person...:D

If I'm not mistaken that looks like a gas log set (the control valve is hidden on the right) in a zero-clearance fireplace (a metal fireplace with brick panel lining inside, and no brick chimney outside, but rather a wood chase).

Am I right? Do I win something?

Rock

[Yippy]

If I'm not mistaken that looks like a gas log set (the control valve is hidden on the right) in a zero-clearance fireplace (a metal fireplace with brick panel lining inside, and no brick chimney outside, but rather a wood chase).

Am I right? Do I win something?

Rock

Yes, you win the Ticky Tacky I Have Too Much Time on My Hands Award.:D

I happen to have the real thing and we even chop our own wood here in the big city. I love the sound of real wood crackling. I've heard we're now environmentally un-PC, but if everyone would stop driving their cars, no one would notice what my smoke is doing to the air. At least it makes the air smell good outside.

[Pouye]

Yes, you win the Ticky Tacky I Have Too Much Time on My Hands Award.:D

I happen to have the real thing and we even chop our own wood here in the big city. I love the sound of real wood crackling. I've heard we're now environmentally un-PC, but if everyone would stop driving their cars, no one would notice what my smoke is doing to the air. At least it makes the air smell good outside.

You burn wood in LA? *cough cough* ...and it makes the smog smell better? *cough cough* ...wow, cool *hocks up loogie*... that's great! :D

Rock

[Yippy]

You burn wood in LA? *cough cough* ...and it makes the smog smell better? *cough cough* ...wow, cool *hocks up loogie*... that's great! :D

Rock

Actually, I live near the coast & the quality of air is always good. Very rarely do we have smog. The air quality gets pretty bad inland near the mountains where it has nowhere to go. (I happen to be sitting by the fire as I type this contributing to the bad air 30 miles from here:P )

[Evanescence]

Back to the topic...

How long till the HMOs and other health care providers demand we humanoids have these RFID chips to store our records? Its already in place but needs work...my good friends wife is working on the system- she travels across the country to set it up...

That'll be first...and it'll be voluntary, then mandatory. The Govt may also jump on it for medicare....

Some candidates want universal, govt health care...that will also open the door for chipping....

Of course "for your own good folks..."

Yeah right !!!!! :rolleyes:

[hochspeyer]

Back to the topic...

How long till the HMOs and other health care providers demand we humanoids have these RFID chips to store our records? Its already in place but needs work...my good friends wife is working on the system- she travels across the country to set it up...

That'll be first...and it'll be voluntary, then mandatory. The Govt may also jump on it for medicare....

Some candidates want universal, govt health care...that will also open the door for chipping....

Of course "for your own good folks..."

Yeah right !!!!! :rolleyes:
I'm against universal "health" care; I'm not fond of HMO's and RFID's only belong on merchandise. Universal health care is a stepping stone of socialized medicine, and the start of universal euthenasia, IMHO.

[Consuming Fire]

...This makes me cringe...I don't want the government to know where i am... =/ If this starts up...i'd rather Join a resistance...Or be like Martin luther and go into hiding while there learn latin and translate the bible into latin.. Thus i would have used my time somewhat wisely.. :o

[Pouye]

<snip> Or be like Martin luther and go into hiding while there learn latin and translate the bible into latin <snip>

That's what I'm doing... :D

I think Bible translation is a great way to spend your life!:
http://wycliffe.org

Rock

ps. Now back to channel "666"...

[Andi]

ps. Now back to channel "666"...


Thanks for the top of the morning coffee spit....

[Evanescence]

Just saw this on Youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYUlCKFHeAQ&feature=related

Our military talking about chipping our troops....

Look for it in 5-7 years...or less.

Word. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[SueQ]

As I've said before, there are probably quite a few people who could possibly benefit from having a chip under their skin - extreme diabetics, epileptics, those with extreme allergies and anybody with an existing medical condition that may render them unconscious or unable to provide EMTs with an acute medical history. EMTs could quickly scan for a chip and know what their dealing with in seconds, possibly saving lives at the same time. I guarantee that after prisoners, this will be the population that the makers of the chip will start marketing to - if they aren't already.

-washboard

Mom already has this on a bracelet she wears.....

[SueQ]

Has to be one of my favorite threads with most of my favorite characters.....carry on, folks!