Iowa Caucus today - Thursday, January 3rd, 2008

[rossid]

My wife may be going.

She likes Thompson, my teenage son has worked for him, and I like to put our support behind one candidate.

If she dose not go it could be Huckabee, McCain or Paul.

Least likely are Giuliani, Keyes and Romney.

There are many undecideds like me.

[Valpo]

Here's my top 3 finishing predictions for each party:

Democrat:

1. Obama
2. Clinton
3. Edwards


Republican:

1. Huckabee
2. Romney
3. McCain


I just don't see Edwards beating out Hillary when push comes to shove, but I expect both races to be real tight at the top

[mat1583]

I just don't see how anyone could vote for a person that doesn't want to be President. Thompson has stated that he doesn't want to be President - he just thinks he would be good for the job.

-washboard

[rossid]

I just don't see how anyone could vote for a person that doesn't want to be President. Thompson has stated that he doesn't want to be President - he just thinks he would be good for the job.

-washboardThat is weird. But there is no candidate that is 100%. Our prior 'ideal candidate' web survey showed that...

[bdfwinn]

Huckabee is scary! He wants to impose a consumption tax on us at a rate of 23%. Yes he will do away with the IRS (So he says) but imagine now that you buy a new car for $35,000 the state sales tax is 3% (Virginia) that translates into a tax of just over $1000. Now lets add Tax Hike Mike's 23% and you now pay a total of $9100 in taxes. This will create a black market with under the table sales of goods and services and then the govt will go back to the IRS and KEEP the sales tax too! The people that will suffer most are the good honest Evangelicals that put this big govt neo-con in power.

VOTE RON PAUL "abolish the IRS and replace it with NOTHING!"

Bill

[Evanescence]

Most of the big wheel candidates are in bed with Globalists, dabbling in the CFR and Tri-lateral. They can't be trusted...

America's sovereignty is in serious jeopardy....people should take this seriously.

Ron Paul is NOT in any Globalist think tank and wants to preserve the constituion and our liberties...

[bdfwinn]

Most of the big wheel candidates are in bed with Globalists, dabbling in the CFR and Tri-lateral. They can't be trusted...

America's sovereignty is in serious jeopardy....people should take this seriously.

Ron Paul is NOT in any Globalist think tank and wants to preserve the constituion and our liberties...

That's the truth! Everything I have read about Dr. Ron Paul or have heard him say has been to my liking on some level. He is not a Yale grad or a big govt neo-con! He even returns the portion of the pay raises for Congress against which he voted. Each year he sends the US Treasury a check for the amount of the pay raise he voted against. He is a man who acts on his principles not a man who says and does what the polls suggest will help him politically.
Bill
*hijacker*
Bill

[clemsontigers23]

Huckabee has won the Iowa caucus...nice win for Huckabee. Hopefully this will give him some momentum. Most of the voters who voted for him were Christian conservatives, so we'll see how that plays out.

[bdfwinn]

Huckabee has won the Iowa caucus...nice win for Huckabee. Hopefully this will give him some momentum. Most of the voters who voted for him were Christian conservatives, so we'll see how that plays out.

It is sad that being a Christian trumps being a tax hiker and a big govt neo-con. If Consrvatives vote for this guy it is out of some sort of identifier (Christian) not because he is a conservative because Huckabee is NOT Conservative. Being pro-life does not make you a conservative that is only part of the recipe in the soup and Huckabee doesn't even equate to a decent broth. I'd vote for a conservative athiest before I'd vote for Huckabee.
IMNSHO
Bill

[clemsontigers23]

It is sad that being a Christian trumps being a tax hiker and a big govt neo-con. If Consrvatives vote for this guy it is out of some sort of identifier (Christian) not because he is a conservative because Huckabee is NOT Conservative. Being pro-life does not make you a conservative that is only part of the recipe in the soup and Huckabee doesn't even equate to a decent broth. I'd vote for a conservative athiest before I'd vote for Huckabee.
IMNSHO
Bill

Wow. The way you talk makes Huckabee sound like he's Satan himself. Ron Paul finished 5th, I believe. He'll have to drop out soon, so who are you going to support? I don't think Huckabee's as bad as you think he is, and I support him at this point. Actually, he's the only candidate besides Ron Paul I support at this point.

[bdfwinn]

Wow. The way you talk makes Huckabee sound like he's Satan himself. Ron Paul finished 5th, I believe. He'll have to drop out soon, so who are you going to support? I don't think Huckabee's as bad as you think he is, and I support him at this point. Actually, he's the only candidate besides Ron Paul I support at this point.

So you'd pay the govt $10,000 to buy a new car? You want to keep fighting a ghost war? You want govt run health care? The Huckster is not conservative period. He is using Christianily to get elected can anyone see that? Nope the Evangelicals will run to the polls this Nov. and vote for the guy that says he believes in Jesus. No matter that he might screw up things as long as he believes in Jesus right? I am so sick of the evangelical political establishment. It is a shame that the largest part of the Christian Church in the United States of America has allowed itself to be stuffed in the back pocket of one particular politcal party. (Loose quote from Donald Miller.)

Bill

PS I will write in Ron Paul if he is not on my ballot no matter what ..."I cannot go against conscience for to go against conscience is neither right nor sane!"

[clemsontigers23]

So you'd pay the govt $10,000 to buy a new car? You want to keep fighting a ghost war? You want govt run health care? The Huckster is not conservative period. He is using Christianily to get elected can anyone see that? Nope the Evangelicals will run to the polls this Nov. and vote for the guy that says he believes in Jesus. No matter that he might screw up things as long as he believes in Jesus right? I am so sick of the evangelical political establishment. It is a shame that the largest part of the Christian Church in the United States of America has allowed itself to be stuffed in the back pocket of one particular politcal party. (Loose quote from Donald Miller.)

Bill

PS I will right in Ron Paul if he is not on my ballot no matter what ..."I cannot go against conscience for to go against conscience is neither right nor sane!"

Where do you get this stuff about Mike Huckabee? CNN? DailyKos? Seriously, instead of spewing a bunch of accusations, back it up with a credible source, and don't try to say a journalist is a credible source, because the liberal media will do anything to prevent a Republican from winning.

By the way, John Edwards takes 2nd, Hillary 3rd. Not a good showing for Hillary. I'm not as opposed to Edwards as the other candidates, but maybe I'm biased because he was born and raised in Seneca, SC and he's opposed to big corporations. He's better than Obama and Clinton, that's for sure.

Also, I'm watching Mike Huckabee's victory speech, and you'll never guess who's standing behind him...Mr. Chuck Norris! :D

[Valpo]

"I cannot go against conscience for to go against conscience is neither right nor sane!"

I'm not votin for Paul but I love the Luther quote! haha :)

[bdfwinn]

I'm not votin for Paul but I love the Luther quote! haha :)

Thanks I'm glad to see that did not go unoticed.
Bill

[mat1583]

Even though Paul showed up 5th in the Iowa caucus with 10%, I'm still very pleased with his showing. He was only about 4,000 votes away from being in third. He wasn't expected to do that well in Iowa and only had about 5% in the polls...so 10% is great.

Apparently many evangelicals and women turned out to vote for Huckabee, which isn't much of a surprise. Actually, it is a bit of a surprise since his actions, in part, helped release a convicted felon who once released, murdered someone else.

How's this for journalistic spin (from cnn.com):
"Sens. Chris Dodd and Joe Biden have bowed out gracefully, while New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, Rep. Ron Paul and Rep. Duncan Hunter continue their quests after getting slaughtered in Iowa."

Funny...Giuliani only garnered 4% of the vote, yet Paul is the one who 'got slaughtered'? They also make it seem like since they didn't bow out of the race, their somehow being disgraceful. I hate mainstream media!

-washboard

[bdfwinn]

Even though Paul showed up 5th in the Iowa caucus with 10%, I'm still very pleased with his showing. He was only about 4,000 votes away from being in third. He wasn't expected to do that well in Iowa and only had about 5% in the polls...so 10% is great.

Apparently many evangelicals and women turned out to vote for Huckabee, which isn't much of a surprise. Actually, it is a bit of a surprise since his actions, in part, helped release a convicted felon who once released, murdered someone else.

How's this for journalistic spin (from cnn.com):
"Sens. Chris Dodd and Joe Biden have bowed out gracefully, while New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, Rep. Ron Paul and Rep. Duncan Hunter continue their quests after getting slaughtered in Iowa."

Funny...Giuliani only garnered 4% of the vote, yet Paul is the one who 'got slaughtered'? They also make it seem like since they didn't bow out of the race, their somehow being disgraceful. I hate mainstream media!

-washboard

Yeah I hear you. Look if Dr. Paul ever even got close to achieving a victory he'd be "taken out". The privateers that own the Federal Reserve Bank, the CFR, and the likes of all the Yale grads would have him quietly put down. Dr. Paul is the first candidate in 50 years that could stand with Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Madison, Henry, and Washington without hanging his head in embarrassment. I believe that one day when Dr. Paul goes home to the full "weight of glory" and sits around the table to discuss politics, with the founders of our United STATES of America, he will be greeted with approval.

Huckabee scares the daylights out of me. His record on illegal immigration while governor of Ark. is shaky. The things he signed were either too late to do any good or were so late they were easily overturned by his successor.

I do not like his proposed 23% national sales tax. He explains that poor people will get an exemption and this and that and some other scheme so we know the govt will not shrink. Dr. Paul says "abolish the IRS and replace it with nothing".

The Constitution gives the Federal Govt. 3 mandates specifically. 1. Settle disputes between states. 2. Provide for the common defense. 3. Regulate interstate commerce. So tell my why the heck there is a federal department of agriculture? Why is there a federal department of education? Why is there a federal department of health and human services? etc., etc., etc., The Constitution (while it gives some powers and duties to the Federal Govt) states that those things not expressly given to the Federal Govt and inherently DENIED! Ever since Abe Lincoln disregarded the Constitution and incorporated America we have steadily let the Constitution be trampled on by unpatriotic power-grabbers and pocket-liners for their own gain. The only time we seem to care about the Constitution in the Church is when we are not allowed to annoy people on a bus with our Bible reading. It sickens me to see Huckabee, Romney, McCain, and the others buy into this neo-con mentality of taxing to expand the Federal Govt. While the Huckster says "consumption tax" he should be saying "let’s cut our Federal Govt by 40% and then not tax our citizens." When he starts sounding off on true Constitutional principles then I'll give Huckabee a second look but right now he is on my skubalon list.

Bill

[rossid]

With a clear conscience I voted for Huckabee.

Everyone is still viable.

Romney would be the most discouraged.

Thompson getting 13% was good. My son happened to work for his office as a government assignment.

Paul had a respectable 10%.

Giuliani does not care about Iowa. He will split the party. I'll vote for someone like McCain, or Paul, or whomever has my values, as a third party candidate. That most likely means a democrat gets in as most independents and some republicans will vote that way because they are anti-Bush.

My wife is ready. Democrat in the White House and the house and senate and she thinks the end times will be upon us. :P

[Jesuslove]

With a clear conscience I voted for Huckabee.

Everyone is still viable.

Romney would be the most discouraged.

Thompson getting 13% was good. My son happened to work for his office as a government assignment.

Paul had a respectable 10%.

Giuliani does not care about Iowa. He will split the party. I'll vote for someone like McCain, or Paul, or whomever has my values, as a third party candidate. That most likely means a democrat gets in as most independents and some republicans will vote that way because they are anti-Bush.

My wife is ready. Democrat in the White House and the house and senate and she thinks the end times will be upon us. :P

UGH. Huckleberry Finn scares me. For me, it's Ron Paul or a democrat.

[Valpo]

UGH. Huckleberry Finn scares me. For me, it's Ron Paul or a democrat.

see I find this paradoxical, because you are a believer of bigger govt social programs to help the poor, and Paul is looking to do away with things like that. So solely based on his stance for the Iraq War, you support him?

"for me it's ron paul or a democrat" could not be any more confusing, because they are nothing alike.

[clemsontigers23]

see I find this paradoxical, because you are a believer of bigger govt social programs to help the poor, and Paul is looking to do away with things like that. So solely based on his stance for the Iraq War, you support him?

"for me it's ron paul or a democrat" could not be any more confusing, because they are nothing alike.

Checkmate. Jesuslove has been exposed as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Ron Paul comes from the "God helps those who help themselves" idealogy when it comes to social programs.

I still support Mike Huckabee. At this point, he's the only one I'd vote for. Fred Thompson wouldn't be as bad, but at this point he's almost ready to drop out of the race. I would never vote for Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani. Actually, I probably would vote for McCain, but he didn't have a strong showing in Iowa. Ron Paul will have to drop out pretty soon. His campaign's just not picking up enough steam.

[sandyandporter]

Checkmate. Jesuslove has been exposed as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Was that necessary? C'mon bud.... you can make a point without taking shots at people. It's a new year, perhaps you two can start afresh!

[bdfwinn]

see I find this paradoxical, because you are a believer of bigger govt social programs to help the poor, and Paul is looking to do away with things like that. So solely based on his stance for the Iraq War, you support him?

"for me it's ron paul or a democrat" could not be any more confusing, because they are nothing alike.

I think where Paul gets support from Libs is on his anti-war stance but the dems don't really understand why he is anti-war. But if the Libs helped Dr. Paul get elected or just launch a movement back to the Constitution then hey let them vote for Dr. Paul.

Bill

[VerbumReale]

Huckabee is scary! He wants to impose a consumption tax on us at a rate of 23%. Yes he will do away with the IRS (So he says) but imagine now that you buy a new car for $35,000 the state sales tax is 3% (Virginia) that translates into a tax of just over $1000. Now lets add Tax Hike Mike's 23% and you now pay a total of $9100 in taxes. This will create a black market with under the table sales of goods and services and then the govt will go back to the IRS and KEEP the sales tax too! The people that will suffer most are the good honest Evangelicals that put this big govt neo-con in power.

VOTE RON PAUL "abolish the IRS and replace it with NOTHING!"

Bill


I try to keep up with the political scene, but it's pretty hard with a lot of other things that I have going on. I am admittedly not as up on politics as many of you.

That in mind, could someone please explain to me what a consumption tax is. Huck was on Jay Leno the other night talking about getting rid of the IRS and having a consumption tax instead. He of course painted a pretty picture, but I couldn't help but see red flags I just didn't like the sound of it.

Also as far as getting rid of the IRS, don't we need the IRS?? I mean there probaby is definitely some need for serious reform in the IRS, but we need people to pay taxes do we not?? If that's a stupi question forgive me, I am not the politico that some of you are.

[clemsontigers23]

Was that necessary? C'mon bud.... you can make a point without taking shots at people. It's a new year, perhaps you two can start afresh!

Yes, it was necessary. Jesuslove takes so much pride in being a liberal democrat but then he goes on and says something that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If I said something like that, he would say the same thing. He's done it before.

[mat1583]

Ron Paul will have to drop out pretty soon. His campaign's just not picking up enough steam.

I think we'll have to wait till after New Hampshire. Paul wasn't expected to do well in Iowa, yet got at least 4% more than polls were showing at the time. If this translates to other states where he has won numerous straw polls and is stronger in the polls, he could pick up a lot of steam. I also wouldn't call $20 million in one quarter "not enough steam".

If Paul doesn't win, I'm still going to support his ideologies as I have already in the past. I do not like the direction our country has been going in the past 40 years. Our dollar is falling, we're over-spending, and creating a entitlement state that cannot last much longer. We're instilling more and more hate in Muslim countries by occupying their lands and bombing their people. All of this can't continue for much longer. If Dr. Paul isn't able to change it, someone must.

-washboard

[mat1583]

Also as far as getting rid of the IRS, don't we need the IRS?? I mean there probaby is definitely some need for serious reform in the IRS, but we need people to pay taxes do we not?? If that's a stupi question forgive me, I am not the politico that some of you are.

The answer is that no, we don't need the IRS. If we completely abolished the IRS and replaced it with nothing, our revenue would be the same as it was 10 years ago. The problem we have now is that our spending has far outstretched our revenue and the value of our monopoly money is quickly falling. If the IRS is abolished, spending has to decrease - that means bringing our troops back home from where they don't belong and getting rid of the needless and unconstitutional federal programs. To bring back the value of the dollar, we would need to go back to a gold standard so our paper bills actually stand for some real value.

-washboard

[sandyandporter]

Yes, it was necessary. Jesuslove takes so much pride in being a liberal democrat but then he goes on and says something that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If I said something like that, he would say the same thing. He's done it before.

I'm going to say this with as much Christian love as possible.... you need to grow up. If you're going to be a Christian man then you need to learn to curb your tongue and turn the other cheek. It doesn't matter what another person says, that's between them and God. It only matters how YOU behave. As Christian's we are to hold each other accountable, that's the only reason that I'm getting on you about this. I am guilty of this too, we all are at times. Now you can fold your arms, stomp your feet and hold your ground or you can feel convicted by the Holy Spirit, confess your faults to God and pray for Him to change your heart.

To quote the band that has brought us all together "if you can't say nothin good don't say nothin at all".

[rossid]

UGH. Huckleberry Finn scares me. For me, it's Ron Paul or a democrat.I will not vote for a pro-abortion candidate like any of the democrats or Giuliani. It looks like maybe a third-party for me as I've said before...

[middletree]

That in mind, could someone please explain to me what a consumption tax is.

It's basically a way of replacing the income tax. I haven't seen Huckleberry's plan, but most flat tax plans replace income tax with the sales tax.

I like it. It's still progressive, which liberals love. That is, a rich person pays more than a poor person, because a rich person buys more stuff. But it would put a lot of people out of work, as there would be hardly any need for tax lawyers, H & R Block, TurboTax, etc. And these industries lobby so hard against flat tax plans that I am afraid we are stuck with the income tax.

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=clemsontigers23;174 0396]Checkmate. Jesuslove has been exposed as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Ron Paul comes from the "God helps those who help themselves" idealogy when it comes to social programs.QUOTE]

No, wrong! I support Paul mostly because he wants us out of Iraq. I want this war over. I don't want America to lose another soldier in Iraq. I am wary of some of Paul's other ideas, particularly doing away with the Federal Reserve, however first and foremost, I want the US to be out of Iraq ASAP, once and for all.

[Jesuslove]

Yes, it was necessary. Jesuslove takes so much pride in being a liberal democrat but then he goes on and says something that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If I said something like that, he would say the same thing. He's done it before.

Despite your shots at me, I wish you peace in the new year. The bottom line is we're both Americans and we both want what is best for the country. We just disagree on some moral issues. Peace.

[Jesuslove]

I'm going to say this with as much Christian love as possible.... you need to grow up. If you're going to be a Christian man then you need to learn to curb your tongue and turn the other cheek. It doesn't matter what another person says, that's between them and God. It only matters how YOU behave. As Christian's we are to hold each other accountable, that's the only reason that I'm getting on you about this. I am guilty of this too, we all are at times. Now you can fold your arms, stomp your feet and hold your ground or you can feel convicted by the Holy Spirit, confess your faults to God and pray for Him to change your heart.

To quote the band that has brought us all together "if you can't say nothin good don't say nothin at all".
Thanks for sticking up for me. I will try to take the high road in 2008.

[Jesuslove]

It's basically a way of replacing the income tax. I haven't seen Huckleberry's plan, but most flat tax plans replace income tax with the sales tax.

I like it. It's still progressive, which liberals love. That is, a rich person pays more than a poor person, because a rich person buys more stuff. But it would put a lot of people out of work, as there would be hardly any need for tax lawyers, H & R Block, TurboTax, etc. And these industries lobby so hard against flat tax plans that I am afraid we are stuck with the income tax.

I have to admit. I'm not a fan of Huckabee for many reasons, but I like the concept of a flat sales tax.

[sandyandporter]

Thanks for sticking up for me. I will try to take the high road in 2008.

You're welcome. Considering I've busted your chops before too.... ;) . I'm the peacemaker in my family too. That's why I stay out of so many debates etc... I too get so hot headed over things that I say stuff I shouldn't say. I'm of the "can't we all just get along" mindset!

[Jesuslove]

You're welcome. Considering I've busted your chops before too.... ;) . I'm the peacemaker in my family too. That's why I stay out of so many debates etc... I too get so hot headed over things that I say stuff I shouldn't say. I'm of the "can't we all just get along" mindset!

I am as well. I try and look for the happy medium. I am my family's peacemaker. That's also why I struggle with this war. Our global image has been tarnished by this war, in my opinion. I would much rather our government spend billions of dollars helping the impoverished of the world, rather than building bombs. Just my opinion. Happy New Year!

[sandyandporter]

I would much rather our government spend billions of dollars helping the impoverished of the world, rather than building bombs. Just my opinion. Happy New Year!

We agree on that. Happy New Year to you as well!

[rossid]

Despite your shots at me, I wish you peace in the new year. The bottom line is we're both Americans and we both want what is best for the country. We just disagree on some moral issues. Peace.Not directed at me but as said previously hopefully these comments are not taken personally.

I am as well. I try and look for the happy medium. I am my family's peacemaker. That's also why I struggle with this war. Our global image has been tarnished by this war, in my opinion. I would much rather our government spend billions of dollars helping the impoverished of the world, rather than building bombs. Just my opinion. Happy New Year!As a Bush supporter I also struggle with Iraq.

[bdfwinn]

[QUOTE=clemsontigers23;174 0396]Checkmate. Jesuslove has been exposed as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Ron Paul comes from the "God helps those who help themselves" idealogy when it comes to social programs.QUOTE]

No, wrong! I support Paul mostly because he wants us out of Iraq. I want this war over. I don't want America to lose another soldier in Iraq. I am wary of some of Paul's other ideas, particularly doing away with the Federal Reserve, however first and foremost, I want the US to be out of Iraq ASAP, once and for all.

JL,
You hit the nail on the head as to why Dr. Paul gets so many of Dem. Lib's:) support.

Now a history lesson on the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve Bank is not federal and has no reserves. It is a private bank owned by private citizens for their profit. The Federal Reserve act was passed Dec 23, 1913 after most Senators had gone home for Christmas. The Senate Majority Leader failed to adjourn the Senate session "sine die" (which disallows any business to be conducted) Because of this oversight 3 (THREE) US Senators took advantage of the oversight, conducted a session, and voted on the bill.

The dollar is so devalued because when the Fed. Reserve Bank needs more money the US Mint just prints them some. If you are the first to get to use the new money its like real dollars but by the time that new money fuses into the economy it devalues the dollars for which you work hard. The Federal Reserve is a FOR PROFIT privately owned bank! You are making big fat cats richer and richer. Yes Ron Paul for President and bull doze the Federal Reserve Bank!.. and for that matter about every fifth building in D.C. and end these wasteful bureaucracies and govt. agencies!

Bill
*soap box overheated and needing a break*

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1740427]

JL,
You hit the nail on the head as to why Dr. Paul gets so many of Dem. Lib's:) support.

Now a history lesson on the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve Bank is not federal and has no reserves. It is a private bank owned by private citizens for their profit. The Federal Reserve act was passed Dec 23, 1913 after most Senators had gone home for Christmas. The Senate Majority Leader failed to adjourn the Senate session "sine die" (which disallows any business to be conducted) Because of this oversight 3 (THREE) US Senators took advantage of the oversight, conducted a session, and voted on the bill.
The Federal Reserve does have gold reserve stored at FRB New York. The Federal Reserve acts as our nation's Central Bank. The Federal Reserve serves many purposes in addition to regulating monetary policy. The FED supervises and regulates financial institutions, act as the go-between on wire transfers, process checks, process cash for financial institutions, etc. etc.

The dollar is so devalued because when the Fed. Reserve Bank needs more money the US Mint just prints them some. If you are the first to get to use the new money its like real dollars but by the time that new money fuses into the economy it devalues the dollars for which you work hard. The Federal Reserve is a FOR PROFIT privately owned bank! You are making big fat cats richer and richer. Yes Ron Paul for President and bull doze the Federal Reserve Bank!.. and for that matter about every fifth building in D.C. and end these wasteful bureaucracies and govt. agencies!

Bill
*soap box overheated and needing a break*

The Mint does not print money. Money is printed by the Department of the Treasuary. The FED controls monetary policy and the nations money supply and it factors in many things such as inflation, the trade deficit, etc. into decision making. The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

The staff of The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System are government employees. Those employed by the twelve individual Reserve Banks are quasi-government employees. The FED does offer services, in part to fund itself. Some of what the FED does is essential to the stabilization of our financial system, such as monitoring, supervising, and regulating domestic financial institutions.

[bdfwinn]

[QUOTE=bdfwinn;1740442]
The Federal Reserve does have gold reserve stored at FRB New York. The Federal Reserve acts as our nation's Central Bank. The Federal Reserve serves many purposes in addition to regulating monetary policy. The FED supervises and regulates financial institutions, act as the go-between on wire transfers, process checks, process cash for financial institutions, etc. etc.



The Mint does not print money. Money is printed by the Department of the Treasuary. Our monetary policy IS control over the nations money supply and it factors in many things such as inflation, the trade deficit, etc. The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

The staff of The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System are government employees. Those employed by the twelve individual Reserve Banks are quasi-government employees. The FED does offer services, in part to fund itself. Some of what the FED does is essential to the stabilization of our financial system, such as monitoring, supervising, and regulating domestic financial institutions.

You work for the Fed Reserve don't you? Does the Fed Reserve have share holders? Does it pay dividennds to those share holders? Why have they stopped publishing M3?
Bill

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1740447]

You work for the Fed Reserve don't you? Does the Fed Reserve have share holders? Does it pay dividennds to those share holders? Why have they stopped publishing M3?
Bill

no comment ;)


shareholders?
the state member banks are shareholders.

as for M3, I am not sure.

[bdfwinn]

[QUOTE=bdfwinn;1740452]

no comment ;)


shareholders?
the state member banks are shareholders.

as for M3, I am not sure.

Those state member banks are privately owned are they not?

The FED began with approximately 300 people or banks that became owners (stockholders purchasing stock at $100 per share - the stock is not publicly traded) in the Federal Reserve Banking System. They make up an international banking cartel of wealth beyond comparison (Reference 1, 14). The FED banking system collects billions of dollars (Reference 8, 17) in interest annually and distributes the profits to its shareholders. The Congress illegally gave the FED the right to print money (through the Treasury) at no interest to the FED. The FED creates money from nothing, and loans it back to us through banks, and charges interest on our currency. The FED also buys Government debt with money printed on a printing press and charges U.S. taxpayers interest. Many Congressmen and Presidents say this is fraud (Reference 1,2,3,5,17). From http://www.apfn.org/APFN/fed_reserve.htm

Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)
John L. Lewis, Plaintiff/Appellant,
v.
United States of America, Defendant/Appellee.
No. 80-5905
United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit.
Submitted March 2, 1982.
Decided April 19, 1982.
As Amended June 24, 1982.

Plaintiff, who was injured by vehicle owned and operated by a federal reserve bank, brought action alleging jurisdiction under the Federal Tort Claims Act. The United States District Court for the Central District of California, David W. Williams, J., dismissed holding that federal reserve bank was not a federal agency within meaning of Act and that the court therefore lacked subject-matter jurisdiction. Appeal was taken. The Court of Appeals, Poole, Circuit Judge, held that federal reserve banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the Act, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations.




Bill

[Valpo]

I am as well. I try and look for the happy medium. I am my family's peacemaker. That's also why I struggle with this war. Our global image has been tarnished by this war, in my opinion. I would much rather our government spend billions of dollars helping the impoverished of the world, rather than building bombs. Just my opinion. Happy New Year!

I wasn't looking to ream you about that I was just pointing out a trend that I found striking. Fair enough you are for bringing the troops home ASAP aka immediately, but doesn't that make you a one issue person? And aren't you just on the same level as those who are one issue voters based on abortion and gay marriage? So how would you react with Paul taking us out of Iraq, but then getting rid of welfare programs for the poor?

Honestly questioning with no malicious intent

[Jesuslove]

I wasn't looking to ream you about that I was just pointing out a trend that I found striking. Fair enough you are for bringing the troops home ASAP aka immediately, but doesn't that make you a one issue person? And aren't you just on the same level as those who are one issue voters based on abortion and gay marriage? So how would you react with Paul taking us out of Iraq, but then getting rid of welfare programs for the poor?

Honestly questioning with no malicious intent

I am not a one issue voter by any means. If I had to vote Democrat, I honestly don't know who I'd choose. I know if the choice is between Ron Paul and a Democrat, I will choose Ron Paul. The war is a major issue for me, but not the only issue. Abortion is important to me as well, as is poverty. Gay marriage is not an issue I'm concerned with. I feel the answer is covenant marriage. Ban divorce. Marriage is a lifetime contract. Before denying someone else the right to marry, we ought to recognize the sanctity of marriage and enact legislation which would ensure no more divorce. The Biblical evidence against divorce is much greater than the evidence against gay marriage.

[Jesuslove]

[QUOTE=Jesuslove;1740454]

Those state member banks are privately owned are they not?
Yes, those banks are owned by their shareholders. However, dividends are paid to the government. The government inherits the profits of the Federal Reserve. If there was money to be made by the individual state member banks, all banks in the US would become state member banks. Presently, the majority of US based financial institutions are regulated by the OCC and FDIC, not the Federal Reserve.

[mat1583]

I feel the answer is covenant marriage. Ban divorce. Marriage is a lifetime contract. Before denying someone else the right to marry, we ought to recognize the sanctity of marriage and enact legislation which would ensure no more divorce. The Biblical evidence against divorce is much greater than the evidence against gay marriage.

I feel the answer is getting the government out of the business of marriage. What right have they to tell us when we're actually married? Why should people be required to have a marriage license?

While there may be Biblical evidence that divorce should almost never be an option, there are clear cases in which it is allowed (adultery). What about in cases of an abusive spouse? Should they be required by law to remain married to someone who beats/abuses them?

The world is not going to understand or accept the Biblical reasoning behind anti-divorce laws. We should not force our Biblically based morals on an unbelieving world.

-washboard

[Valpo]

The Biblical evidence against divorce is much greater than the evidence against gay marriage.

Fair enough, thank you for your answer

And I wanted to highlight this for your insight, not to derail the thread. Christians in America have their pet sins of abortion and homosexuality, yet divorce is the only thing out of those three that Jesus railed against.

[Valpo]

The world is not going to understand or accept the Biblical reasoning behind anti-divorce laws. We should not force our Biblically based morals on an unbelieving world.

-washboard

Right, but the church needs to address the issue of divorce more firmly.

And as far as marriage goes, what about atheists or agnostics who would rather be married by the mayor or a justice of the peace? These people would not want to be married in a church, mosque, or synagogue...should they just not be allowed to marry, and who says that then? I don't know

[middletree]

Jesuslove made a point that I agree with: The bible never says gay marriage is a sin. It says same-sex sexual activity is sin, but that isn't the debate. If we are concerned that we get less of God's blessing when we, as a nation, allow or endorse sin, then we already crossed that bridge 3 years ago when the Supreme Court struck down all state laws against same-sex sex.

[bdfwinn]

Jesuslove made a point that I agree with: The bible never says gay marriage is a sin. It says same-sex sexual activity is sin, but that isn't the debate. If we are concerned that we get less of God's blessing when we, as a nation, allow or endorse sin, then we already crossed that bridge 3 years ago when the Supreme Court struck down all state laws against same-sex sex.

Okay objection. Triune God created marriage and set it up to be between men and women. Granted polygamy existed OC but NC says one man one woman.

Since to people of the same sex CANNOT be married (by the design of its Creator) then there is no problem with two people of the same sex living together and being in love but if they have sex it is nothing other than a form of fornication.
Bill

[Jesuslove]

Jesuslove made a point that I agree with: The bible never says gay marriage is a sin. It says same-sex sexual activity is sin, but that isn't the debate. If we are concerned that we get less of God's blessing when we, as a nation, allow or endorse sin, then we already crossed that bridge 3 years ago when the Supreme Court struck down all state laws against same-sex sex.

do we forego God's blessing for endorsing divorce?

[bholdj]

surprised that no one has mentioned the awesome speech that Obama gave last night.

Im still iffy about the universal healthcare. But I cam close to believing him last night after his speech.

Hope is the bedrock of this nation; the belief that our destiny will not be written for us, but by us; by all those men and women who are not content to settle for the world as it is; who have the courage to remake the world as it should be.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/CCqm

If thats not awesome, i don't know what is.

[Valpo]

Yeah Obama's a great orator...but beyond that? I don't know, time will tell

[bdfwinn]

surprised that no one has mentioned the awesome speech that Obama gave last night.

Im still iffy about the universal healthcare. But I cam close to believing him last night after his speech.

Hope is the bedrock of this nation; the belief that our destiny will not be written for us, but by us; by all those men and women who are not content to settle for the world as it is; who have the courage to remake the world as it should be.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/CCqm

If thats not awesome, i don't know what is.

He agrees with me that we do not need the govt to provide us with health care or 60% of the other crap we pay taxes for them to do poorly.

Bill

[clemsontigers23]

Not to derail from the thread, but I didn't mean it as a personal attack against you Jesuslove. As you know, sometimes I get a smart mouth and it gets me trouble. Whenever inconsistencies arise, the person should be called out on it. Hopefully someone calls me out on something next time I say something that contradicts each other. Either way, thanks for the blessing, and same to you.

[rossid]

surprised that no one has mentioned the awesome speech that Obama gave last night.

Im still iffy about the universal healthcare. But I cam close to believing him last night after his speech.

Hope is the bedrock of this nation; the belief that our destiny will not be written for us, but by us; by all those men and women who are not content to settle for the world as it is; who have the courage to remake the world as it should be.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/ObamaHQ/CCqm

If thats not awesome, i don't know what is.Sounds like he is taking it out of God's hands. Plus what can the president do without the congress and senate?

[VerbumReale]

The Biblical evidence against divorce is much greater than the evidence against gay marriage.


I don't know if I necessarily agree with that, but I see that your point is that the church needs to address the issue of divorce much more firmly and I whole-heartedly agree. However I think this logic that divorce is condemned in the Bible as much if not more than gay marriage is often used as a rationale to sweep the gay marriage issue under the rug. I have heard some pastors even avoid talking about the topic using the logic that we need to focus on what unites and not on what divides us. What if a marriage couselor took that apporach?? Telling couples they should igonore what divides them, ie they should ignore unresolved issues that are festering in their marriage until they inevitably reveal themselves in a big explosion of rage and fury.

Now as far as the biblical case against homosexual marriage, the logic that somehow just becuase it is not mentioned by name then that must mean it's not addressed just doesn't hold water. In Matthew 19 Jesus says...
Matthew
19:4
He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,
19:5
and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
19:6
So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

So while He may not use the words homosexual marriage, He is clearly confirmimng the Biblical standard of marriage of one man and one woman that was set back in creation, and so is addressing not just divorce but anything that violates that standard such as gay marriage or polygamy. So while it is true that the word divorce is used more often than any references to homosexuality, I believe the biblical case against homosexual marriage is as strong as the case against divorce. Regardless, the church needs to address both and shouldn't use the rationale that we have dropped the ball on divorce as an excuse to ignore gay-marriage.

[cheewiee]

Huckabee is scary! He wants to impose a consumption tax on us at a rate of 23%. Yes he will do away with the IRS (So he says) but imagine now that you buy a new car for $35,000 the state sales tax is 3% (Virginia) that translates into a tax of just over $1000. Now lets add Tax Hike Mike's 23% and you now pay a total of $9100 in taxes. This will create a black market with under the table sales of goods and services and then the govt will go back to the IRS and KEEP the sales tax too! The people that will suffer most are the good honest Evangelicals that put this big govt neo-con in power.

VOTE RON PAUL "abolish the IRS and replace it with NOTHING!"

Bill

That's a really simplistic, and demonizing view of the Fair Tax...

Right now, Income tax is added into the cost of every stage of production... From the Raw materials Dealer, to the Parts Maker, to the Assembly Plant, to the Final Dealer who sells the car. What that means to you, as the consumer is that your paying the taxes anyway. It's just now, the tax is front loaded in the sticker price, with the Fair Tax the tax comes out of the sticker price and gets added on in the end.

So yes, while 23% on top of a 20,000 car would be 4,600, once you back out the 20-30 % in income taxes that had to be paid in the production and sale of the 20,000 car the sticker price drops to 15,000 bucks... now add the 23% you are looking at 18,500.

So your 20,000 car now, actually drops to 18,400 (After sales tax) under the fair tax.

[bholdj]

Sounds like he is taking it out of God's hands. Plus what can the president do without the congress and senate?

True. Obama would need the backing of the congress and senate in order to achieve the radical change he is talking about. As for Obama taking the destiny of the world out of Gods hands. I woudn't jump on that banwagon so quickly.

“[I]f we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - then as progressives, we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse…Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one anotherothers will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.”

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/faith/

Now, he throws Judaism and Islam into that mix, two religions that don't float my cup of tea. But perhaps Obama's policy on faith is not one that supresses Jesus, but asks christians to turn to Him for help on how to make the world better. Is that a bad thing?


What ya think

[rossid]

True. Obama would need the backing of the congress and senate in order to achieve the radical change he is talking about. As for Obama taking the destiny of the world out of Gods hands. I woudn't jump on that banwagon so quickly.

“[I]f we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - then as progressives, we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse…Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one anotherothers will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.”

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/faith/Progressive=liberal just in case anyone wondered.



Now, he throws Judaism and Islam into that mix, two religions that don't float my cup of tea. But perhaps Obama's policy on faith is not one that supresses Jesus, but asks christians to turn to Him for help on how to make the world better. Is that a bad thing?


What ya think
Okay, religion is mentioned, and there should be a discourse. But what some claim as truth he may view as intolerance or 'how it should not be practiced'. How truth has its place but whether or not that place is in politics is the question. And perhaps Obama's Christianity acknowledges that all religions worship the same god.

[Jesuslove]

Not to derail from the thread, but I didn't mean it as a personal attack against you Jesuslove. As you know, sometimes I get a smart mouth and it gets me trouble. Whenever inconsistencies arise, the person should be called out on it. Hopefully someone calls me out on something next time I say something that contradicts each other. Either way, thanks for the blessing, and same to you.

peace, clemson! best wishes for a blessed 2008!

[clemsontigers23]

That's a really simplistic, and demonizing view of the Fair Tax...

Right now, Income tax is added into the cost of every stage of production... From the Raw materials Dealer, to the Parts Maker, to the Assembly Plant, to the Final Dealer who sells the car. What that means to you, as the consumer is that your paying the taxes anyway. It's just now, the tax is front loaded in the sticker price, with the Fair Tax the tax comes out of the sticker price and gets added on in the end.

So yes, while 23% on top of a 20,000 car would be 4,600, once you back out the 20-30 % in income taxes that had to be paid in the production and sale of the 20,000 car the sticker price drops to 15,000 bucks... now add the 23% you are looking at 18,500.

So your 20,000 car now, actually drops to 18,400 (After sales tax) under the fair tax.

Great explanation. I hope anti-Hucksters understand this.

[Valpo]

Unfortunately, Mike seems like a great nice man, but he also seems clueless at times. For instance, he claimed to have had no idea he was crossing the picket line to be on Leno the other day.

And his knowledge of foreign policy is quite questionable

[cheewiee]

Unfortunately, Mike seems like a great nice man, but he also seems clueless at times. For instance, he claimed to have had no idea he was crossing the picket line to be on Leno the other day.

And his knowledge of foreign policy is quite questionable

I think most of us know that Huckabee isn't going to be the nominee. Most likely he will wind up being Guilliani's running mate.

[Valpo]

I think most of us know that Huckabee isn't going to be the nominee. Most likely he will wind up being Guilliani's running mate.

Rudy who? I love NY just as much and if not more than him but uh last I checked McCain was gonna win NH and be in the driver's seat

[cheewiee]

Rudy who? I love NY just as much and if not more than him but uh last I checked McCain was gonna win NH and be in the driver's seat

Just like in 2000, I don't see his campaign materializing anywhere else. I think once Rudy wins in Michigan and in FL, which I think he will, He will become the defacto nominee.... but that's just my opinion.

[clemsontigers23]

Just like in 2000, I don't see his campaign materializing anywhere else. I think once Rudy wins in Michigan and in FL, which I think he will, He will become the defacto nominee.... but that's just my opinion.

I hope you're wrong. I really do. Having to choose between Obama and Giuliani, I think I would simply abstain from going through the trouble of deciding the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Not that either is evil, but I will never vote for either one to be president of this country. Giuliani would be getting the nomination based on name recognition, and that's just not right.

[Valpo]

Just like in 2000, I don't see his campaign materializing anywhere else. I think once Rudy wins in Michigan and in FL, which I think he will, He will become the defacto nominee.... but that's just my opinion.

I disagree, McCain's gaining support in SC and in MI, and Rudy's disappearing. Plus everyone loves an underdog and a comeback story, and that is McCain.

[cheewiee]

I disagree, McCain's gaining support in SC and in MI, and Rudy's disappearing. Plus everyone loves an underdog and a comeback story, and that is McCain.

McCain may gain some support in SC, but that's going to be Huckabee's state....

Like I said if Rudy doesn't become the Nominee by Super Duper Tuesday, then the Republicans won't have a nominee till the convention.. Which may be a serious disadvantage to the dems...