President Bush: Evil vs. Good Fruits

[Backpacker777]

Excellent analysis from Cutting Edge Ministries on Bush. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news_updates/nz1086.htm

[danbos]

If they can only come up with 3 good things about him, something tells me they're biased.

[rossid]

If they can only come up with 3 good things about him, something tells me they're biased.You think? :eek:

[Backpacker777]

The evidence speaks for itself.

Bush budgeted more for Planned Parenthood than Clinton

Bush paid homage to idols at a Shinto shrine while on a visit to Japan

Bush has recieved high praise from the gay 'Log Cabin Republican' group for his support of their policies.

Bush praised Satanic rocker Ozzy Ozbourne at a White House dinner and then did a stand up comedy routine in which he made a lewd innuendo joke about Dick Cheney.

Bush sent a letter of congratulation to a church that regularly performs same sex 'commitment' ceremonies.

Bush has been caught on tape several times using profanity and giving the finger.

Bush campaigned for pro-abort, pro-gay senator Arlen Spector

and much more

[Valpo]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any more looney toon around here

[Valpo]

Salvation Check list:

Jesus says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

I'm tired of self righteous and pious folk saying who goes to heaven and hell, ESPECIALLY when condemning folks who say they believe.

[Jesuslove]

The evidence speaks for itself.

Bush budgeted more for Planned Parenthood than Clinton

Bush paid homage to idols at a Shinto shrine while on a visit to Japan

Bush has recieved high praise from the gay 'Log Cabin Republican' group for his support of their policies.

Bush praised Satanic rocker Ozzy Ozbourne at a White House dinner and then did a stand up comedy routine in which he made a lewd innuendo joke about Dick Cheney.

Bush sent a letter of congratulation to a church that regularly performs same sex 'commitment' ceremonies.

Bush has been caught on tape several times using profanity and giving the finger.

Bush campaigned for pro-abort, pro-gay senator Arlen Spector

and much more

I don't support Bush at all, but I think some of what you said above isn't totally accurate.

I also agree with Valpo... we are all sinners. That being said, I think President Bush is the worst President we've ever had. He panders to Christians, but his actions don't match his words.

[Backpacker777]

Salvation Check list:

Jesus says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

I'm tired of self righteous and pious folk saying who goes to heaven and hell, ESPECIALLY when condemning folks who say they believe.

Jesus also said "Not all who say unto me 'Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" and "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".

[VerbumReale]

Jesus also said "Not all who say unto me 'Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" and "Wherefore by your fruits ye shall know them".

:rolleyes:

Ahhh, the fine art of reading the Gospel through the lens of the law.

[Evanescence]

Religious beliefs among politicians are part of the game.....as far as I am concerned, none of them can be trusted with the exception of a few.

I don't know if Bush is a Christian as God sees it or not...and I don't really care. He has a job to do...Christian or not...and he has done an aweful job thus far and has VERY questionable issues and things happen under his Admin. He seems very decietful, double talking, stubborn and has an answer for everything.

To me, anyone with connections like his cannot be trusted....

[rossid]

Salvation Check list:

Jesus says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

I'm tired of self righteous and pious folk saying who goes to heaven and hell, ESPECIALLY when condemning folks who say they believe.

AMEN!!!

[pamcharlie]

Seriously worrying President Bush's evil fruits outweighs his good fruits yipes double yipes I heard from some one in my old home group that he is a christian but since reading the list i don't think so. this is so very alarming

[middletree]

Seriously worrying President Bush's evil fruits outweighs his good fruits yipes double yipes I heard from some one in my old home group that he is a christian but since reading the list i don't think so. this is so very alarming

Huh?

[lilmikey]

Listen dont even compare Clinton with Bush. Look at all Bush has now we at least have a military that will do its job. All Clinton was good at was getting a little something something from the intern in the Oval Office;) :D :D . I dont agree with President Bush 100% of the time but Clinton is a disgrace and a traitor to his country!

[lilmikey]

:rolleyes:

Ahhh, the fine art of reading the Gospel through the lens of the law.

No thats not reading the Gospel through "lens" of the law. That is reading what Jesus said.

There is a very fine line between judging somebodys salvation and looking at their fruit. I dont point my finger in somebodies face and say your not a Christian because you do this or that or dont do. Nir yet can I think wow he says he is a Christian so he must be. Just because somebody says God or even names the name of Christ does not automatically make them a believer. Its all in the attitude and lifestyle(no I dont mean how they dress or anything now THATS the law, it means how they conduct themselves maybe some naturally but most of the time through the attitude and actions)

[kiwisongbird]

It's really important to look at the fruit of Christians, the Bible tells us that by their fruit we will know them. A large amount of people look at Mr B's fruit and see that it is somewhat lacking - if those things are true of Mr B - then there are some serious bad fruits hanging around... if someone supporting him wrote the same thing, would they be able to find many more than three nice things about him? I dunno?

It's between him and God if he's a follower of Jesus or not.. time will tell...

[Backpacker777]

Let's take a look at one piece of evidence.

Bush invited Satanic Rocker Ozzy Ozbourne to the White House Correspondents dinner, praised him and his Satanic music in a speech, and said 'Ozzy, mom loves your stuff'.

He then went on to do a stand up comedy routine in which he engaged in lewd innuendo speech.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1758.cfm

[Valpo]

Then we have those who gossip and bust all over the 8th commandment but don't see the wrong in their gossip...

[middletree]

Bush invited Satanic Rocker Ozzy Ozbourne

Do you like Third Day? Because they've publicly embraced the music of Led Zeppelin and Elton John, each of whom has recorded songs at least as blasphemous as Ozzy has. And don't get me started on the pagan Christmas tree, and Easter eggs.

I guess that's why we Christians need a Savior, huh?

[hochspeyer]

Bush is not perfect. For those who are Bush vs Clinton:

At last count, Bush was still not only married to his wife, but lived with her.

That would be Bush 1, Clinton negative infinity (if such a thing were conceiveable.)

[middletree]

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1758.cfm
Good grief, dude! Who wrote this stuff?

Here's the total quote:


"'The thing about Ozzy is, he's made a lot of big hit recordings: Party With the Animals, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Face in Hell, Black Skies and Bloodbath in Paradise, Ozzy, Mom loves your stuff, President Bush announced."


Clearly, this is an attempt by Bush to be funny. I know first-hand that some stabs at humor are more successful than others. I tell dumber jokes than this on a daily basis. But let's look a little further to see if the writer of this website knows not to take it seriously:

I could not believe my eyes as I read this quote from President Bush! Here he was, speaking approvingly of some of the most blatant Satanic lyrics the world has ever seen, sung by a man who bit the heads off chickens and doves as part of his Heavy Metal Satanic Rock routine! No genuinely Born Again believer in Jesus Christ -- inhabited by the pure Holy Spirit -- would ever speak approvingly of lyrics such as these, or honor such a performer!

Oh my.

For the record, I cannot stand Ozzy's music, and he might very well be into Satanism. I sure wouldn't feel comfortable writing or singing songs with those themes, as we found out during the Golden Compass threads. But to make the leap and say that one who listens to such music, or makes jokes about his mom listening to it, is not genuinely saved, is a demonstration that that person has no clear understanding of what salvation is. And that's a sad way to live.

[Valpo]

The real issue here is looking at Mr. Backpacker's post since he became a member on these boards. He has been spouting accusations at people, every post of his takes a stab at some other person or group of people. It seems the sole point of Mr. Backpacker being on these boards is to preach his intolerance and wild accusations. If there is one area I wished the moderators had more control over it would be monitoring and cleaning up posts like his.

POLICE STATE! :eek:

[rossid]

It was in Des Moines, and not chickens and doves, but a bat that he thought was a toy.

http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/marilyn2.asp

LZ & LJ? There is also Bono's from U2 dropping the f-bomb on network tv. A sin is a sin - no matter the band.

But then again perhaps it is just that the pot is simply being stirred by 777's posts.

[SueQ]

Praise God for a Savior who took on the sins of the world and gives everlasting life to those who believe and follow Him......

My bro works at the Pentagon (wonder what cutting edge would say about that)...formerly in a military capacity....now retired and working in a civilian capacity....Has been approached to run for government office on more than one occasion.....He refuses because of the compromises you have to make to get anywhere politically...can't justify the means to accomplish the good of the end....He became a believer several years ago....

I will agree that when I heard Bush using the "New World Order" phrase I was taken aback and concerned.....some interesting ideas on Cutting Edge....would want to see more to back it up....What can anyone tell me about this website?

Of course we all know that true peace will not come until the return of Jesus....

[middletree]

LZ & LJ?

What does that mean?

There is also Bono's from U2 dropping the f-bomb on network tv. A sin is a sin - no matter the band.
We've had threads on this before, but nobody has ever demonstrated to me that saying the F-word is a sin. Even so, the article that Backpacker refered to wasn't just accusing someone of sin--it was stating that someone could not possibly be saved because he made a joke about music. There's a huge difference between sinning and not being saved.

[Backpacker777]

I noticed that all of the posters conveniently ignored the fact that after Bush got done praising Ozzy he then did a standup comedy routine in which he engaged in sexually filthy speech about Dick Cheney.

Bush's alleged 'conversion' was supposed to have happened in 1985, yet in 2002 he had no problem making lewd innuendo jokes in front of the news correspondents of the nation.

Oh, and I almost forgot. A few nights after the Ozzy bash a movie with nude scenes was shown while Bush was flying on air force one.

[Valpo]

I noticed that all of the posters conveniently ignored the fact that after Bush got done praising Ozzy he then did a standup comedy routine in which he engaged in sexually filthy speech about Dick Cheney.

Bush's alleged 'conversion' was supposed to have happened in 1985, yet in 2002 he had no problem making lewd innuendo jokes in front of the news correspondents of the nation.

Wake up, smell the coffee Christians. Bush is a phony.

8th Commandment:

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Wake up and smell something other than your own head up your butt

[middletree]

Wake up and smell something other than your own head up your butt

I used to go to church with people like Backpacker. I used to be like him. What a sad existence that was. I'm so glad I'm out of it now. There's no arguing with someone like that. Not on a forum, especially.

[Backpacker777]

Middletree,

Would you say that this is 'President Bush harmlessly joking about Ozzy's lyrics'?

Notice that Ozzy's lyrics clearly blaspheme God! When Ozzy sings, "God knows as your dog knows", he is saying that God has no more knowledge or power than your dog! This is utter blasphemy, and it is approved by George W. Bush!

When President Bush honored Ozzy Osbourne, the president is indirectly blaspheming God, especially since "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" is one of Ozzy's songs he singled out for honor!

[middletree]

Middletree,

Would you say that this is 'President Bush harmlessly joking about Ozzy's lyrics'?

Bush most likely doesn't know every song that Ozzy did, and certainly doesn't endorse every song.

So do you like Third Day? Did you know that Mac has listed "Your Song" by Elton John as one of his favorite songs? And did you know that Elton John sang a song called "Chasing the Crown" on his album called "21 at 33"? In that song, he sings from the point of view of Satan, talking about wanting to take God's place. It's a repulsive song, and Elton is clearly headed in the wrong direction spiritually. But would you take this knowledge and judge the salvation of Mac Powell because he likes another, unrelated song by that same artist?

That's the part I'm questioning here, the accusation that one cannot be saved if they endorse something that has a connection to something offensive to God, even if that connection contains a few degrees of separation.

Followed logically, nobody is saved, because all of us have somehow endorsed someone or something that has an indirect connection to something that is, at its root, satanic. That is, you may have bought groceries today at a store owned by a company that donates some money to Planned Parenthood through a 3rd-party charity. Therefore, you have helped fund an abortion. Is this an undesirable thing? Yes, it is. Does it have anything at all to do with your salvation? Of course not.

[Pouye]

It is obvious that Backpacker777 doesn't like Bush, and he (or she?) feels that Bush isn't saved because he sometimes does not "bear the fruit of the Spirit".

First off, if you start out biased, you will never see the good things that any President has done. I personally did not like Clinton as a president, but I think he did some good things. I'm not sure Clinton is a Christian, but that is not for me to judge. If I was a fruit inspector, I would have to say Clinton lied to the American public under oath about having sex with an intern (which was adultery because he is a married man) and he did other immoral things. But fortunately, immorality will not send someone automatically to hell -- for if anyone does sin, they can go to God the Father, who is faithful and just to forgive that person and cleanse them from all unrighteous (if they are born again in the first place, of course.) So, no, as much as I would like to say that Clinton is not saved because of his fruit, I cannot know -- for only God knows, and only God sees his heart.

As far as Bush goes, his marital relationship has been much better than several other US presidents. That is a big plus for him. He has personally visited US troops on the battlefield on many occasions, even sacrificing precious family time to do it. Bush was handed an economy that was going down fast by the Clinton administration and did a good job of pulling it up out of the gutter. Bush hasn't done very well with continuing good economic practices, however -- doing pretty much what the Clinton Administration did to get into the hole in the first place (overspending).

Personally, both Clinton and Bush have tried very hard to relate to the US public. To be fair, sometimes this is the Presidents idea, but often it isn't -- for every President has advisers who "suggest ideas" for public relations, and even schedule the President for special events (like working in a soup kitchen for the poor, etc.). It is hard to know if a President did something because they thought it up and just did it, or because an adviser scheduled it and the President thought it was a good idea and did it (or just did it because it looks good to the public, even though they did not really want to do it.)

It is a fact that Clinton neglected the military (meaning he didn't put lots of money and effort into making it better, not necessarily that he made it worse). It is also a fact that Bush has improved the military in the USA, but not in every way or place (still lots more to be done).

It is a fact that Bush has suffered more terrorist attacks, and stronger ones than Clinton ever did. Clinton was a "appeaser" President... allowing pots on the back burner to simmer until he was gone. Bush is a confronter, but He has made some mistakes as to how to go about confronting. There has been many mistakes made in his "war on terror", but at the same time, it was a war that was pretty much inevitable in many ways (unless the President decided not to do anything, which was against public opinion, and would have been voted down anyway).

Some say the USA should have never gone to war with Iraq. There were pros and cons, and there was no doubt that a very important ally (Israel) was being threatened by Iraq (not just in words, but with force as per the Gulf War). The USA has decided several times to act in force to protect their ally, Israel. Clinton routinely did this (authorizing dozens of stealth missions to take out military facilities that were being erected in the "no fly zone").

Clinton let the "inspector issue" slide in Iraq, which possibly could have prevented the Iraq/US war.

As far as how well Bush has done domestically, I think pretty well. Our economy is pretty strong, but it is starting to show signs of being stretched by overspending (especially militarily, which might not be a bad thing since we are still engaged militarily). Bush has also done a lot to improve homeland security (with much more to be done) and has done much to curb homeland terrorism (although some might say he has gone overboard in some ways to do this). Under Bush there has been many tax breaks which have helped even the poorest (I know... they even helped me!)

Clinton was a better public speaker, and was also better at gaining international support for things. Even though he was sometimes messing around in the Oval Orifice (er... I mean... Office), he did later do his best to make amends, and continued to do his work to (what I believe) the best of his abilities (despite his struggling marriage).

Has Bush embraced the "New World Order"? Yes. So did Clinton. So did many of our Presidents. The world itself is basically embracing it, so the USA is simply going along with many other "super powers" into this Utopian concept. Is Bush a Christian? He says he is, but one really never knows for sure until Judgment Day. Is Clinton a Christian? Same answer.

If muttering some swear words under your breath, or joking about something inappropriate, or committing adultery, or any other sin is the way we draw the line if someone is a Christian or not, there would not be very many on the "Christian" side of the line. In fact, there wouldn't be ANYONE on that side of the line but Christ.

But for the grace of God I go,

Rock

[Valpo]

It is obvious that Backpacker777 doesn't like Bush, and he (or she?) feels that Bush isn't saved because he sometimes does not "bear the fruit of the Spirit".

First off, if you start out biased, you will never see the good things that any President has done. I personally did not like Clinton as a president, but I think he did some good things. I'm not sure Clinton is a Christian, but that is not for me to judge. If I was a fruit inspector, I would have to say Clinton lied to the American public under oath about having sex with an intern (which was adultery because he is a married man) and he did other immoral things. But fortunately, immorality will not send someone automatically to hell -- for if anyone does sin, they can go to God the Father, who is faithful and just to forgive that person and cleanse them from all unrighteous (if they are born again in the first place, of course.) So, no, as much as I would like to say that Clinton is not saved because of his fruit, I cannot know -- for only God knows, and only God sees his heart.

As far as Bush goes, his marital relationship has been much better than several other US presidents. That is a big plus for him. He has personally visited US troops on the battlefield on many occasions, even sacrificing precious family time to do it. Bush was handed an economy that was going down fast by the Clinton administration and did a good job of pulling it up out of the gutter. Bush hasn't done very well with continuing good economic practices, however -- doing pretty much what the Clinton Administration did to get into the hole in the first place (overspending).

Personally, both Clinton and Bush have tried very hard to relate to the US public. To be fair, sometimes this is the Presidents idea, but often it isn't -- for every President has advisers who "suggest ideas" for public relations, and even schedule the President for special events (like working in a soup kitchen for the poor, etc.). It is hard to know if a President did something because they thought it up and just did it, or because an adviser scheduled it and the President thought it was a good idea and did it (or just did it because it looks good to the public, even though they did not really want to do it.)

It is a fact that Clinton neglected the military (meaning he didn't put lots of money and effort into making it better, not necessarily that he made it worse). It is also a fact that Bush has improved the military in the USA, but not in every way or place (still lots more to be done).

It is a fact that Bush has suffered more terrorist attacks, and stronger ones than Clinton ever did. Clinton was a "appeaser" President... allowing pots on the back burner to simmer until he was gone. Bush is a confronter, but He has made some mistakes as to how to go about confronting. There has been many mistakes made in his "war on terror", but at the same time, it was a war that was pretty much inevitable in many ways (unless the President decided not to do anything, which was against public opinion, and would have been voted down anyway).

Some say the USA should have never gone to war with Iraq. There were pros and cons, and there was no doubt that a very important ally (Israel) was being threatened by Iraq (not just in words, but with force as per the Gulf War). The USA has decided several times to act in force to protect their ally, Israel. Clinton routinely did this (authorizing dozens of stealth missions to take out military facilities that were being erected in the "no fly zone").

Clinton let the "inspector issue" slide in Iraq, which possibly could have prevented the Iraq/US war.

As far as how well Bush has done domestically, I think pretty well. Our economy is pretty strong, but it is starting to show signs of being stretched by overspending (especially militarily, which might not be a bad thing since we are still engaged militarily). Bush has also done a lot to improve homeland security (with much more to be done) and has done much to curb homeland terrorism (although some might say he has gone overboard in some ways to do this). Under Bush there has been many tax breaks which have helped even the poorest (I know... they even helped me!)

Clinton was a better public speaker, and was also better at gaining international support for things. Even though he was sometimes messing around in the Oval Orifice (er... I mean... Office), he did later do his best to make amends, and continued to do his work to (what I believe) the best of his abilities (despite his struggling marriage).

Has Bush embraced the "New World Order"? Yes. So did Clinton. So did many of our Presidents. The world itself is basically embracing it, so the USA is simply going along with many other "super powers" into this Utopian concept. Is Bush a Christian? He says he is, but one really never knows for sure until Judgment Day. Is Clinton a Christian? Same answer.

If muttering some swear words under your breath, or joking about something inappropriate, or committing adultery, or any other sin is the way we draw the line if someone is a Christian or not, there would not be very many on the "Christian" side of the line. In fact, there wouldn't be ANYONE on that side of the line but Christ.

But for the grace of God I go,

Rock

amen

[rossid]

What does that mean?


We've had threads on this before, but nobody has ever demonstrated to me that saying the F-word is a sin. Even so, the article that Backpacker refered to wasn't just accusing someone of sin--it was stating that someone could not possibly be saved because he made a joke about music. There's a huge difference between sinning and not being saved.

Led Zeppelin and Elton John, should have been EJ, not LJ.

I never remember having someone accused of, ahem, burying there own head, out here on the boards...

[SueQ]

It is obvious that Backpacker777 doesn't like Bush, and he (or she?) feels that Bush isn't saved because he sometimes does not "bear the fruit of the Spirit".

First off, if you start out biased, you will never see the good things that any President has done. I personally did not like Clinton as a president, but I think he did some good things. I'm not sure Clinton is a Christian, but that is not for me to judge. If I was a fruit inspector, I would have to say Clinton lied to the American public under oath about having sex with an intern (which was adultery because he is a married man) and he did other immoral things. But fortunately, immorality will not send someone automatically to hell -- for if anyone does sin, they can go to God the Father, who is faithful and just to forgive that person and cleanse them from all unrighteous (if they are born again in the first place, of course.) So, no, as much as I would like to say that Clinton is not saved because of his fruit, I cannot know -- for only God knows, and only God sees his heart.

As far as Bush goes, his marital relationship has been much better than several other US presidents. That is a big plus for him. He has personally visited US troops on the battlefield on many occasions, even sacrificing precious family time to do it. Bush was handed an economy that was going down fast by the Clinton administration and did a good job of pulling it up out of the gutter. Bush hasn't done very well with continuing good economic practices, however -- doing pretty much what the Clinton Administration did to get into the hole in the first place (overspending).

Personally, both Clinton and Bush have tried very hard to relate to the US public. To be fair, sometimes this is the Presidents idea, but often it isn't -- for every President has advisers who "suggest ideas" for public relations, and even schedule the President for special events (like working in a soup kitchen for the poor, etc.). It is hard to know if a President did something because they thought it up and just did it, or because an adviser scheduled it and the President thought it was a good idea and did it (or just did it because it looks good to the public, even though they did not really want to do it.)

It is a fact that Clinton neglected the military (meaning he didn't put lots of money and effort into making it better, not necessarily that he made it worse). It is also a fact that Bush has improved the military in the USA, but not in every way or place (still lots more to be done).

It is a fact that Bush has suffered more terrorist attacks, and stronger ones than Clinton ever did. Clinton was a "appeaser" President... allowing pots on the back burner to simmer until he was gone. Bush is a confronter, but He has made some mistakes as to how to go about confronting. There has been many mistakes made in his "war on terror", but at the same time, it was a war that was pretty much inevitable in many ways (unless the President decided not to do anything, which was against public opinion, and would have been voted down anyway).

Some say the USA should have never gone to war with Iraq. There were pros and cons, and there was no doubt that a very important ally (Israel) was being threatened by Iraq (not just in words, but with force as per the Gulf War). The USA has decided several times to act in force to protect their ally, Israel. Clinton routinely did this (authorizing dozens of stealth missions to take out military facilities that were being erected in the "no fly zone").

Clinton let the "inspector issue" slide in Iraq, which possibly could have prevented the Iraq/US war.

As far as how well Bush has done domestically, I think pretty well. Our economy is pretty strong, but it is starting to show signs of being stretched by overspending (especially militarily, which might not be a bad thing since we are still engaged militarily). Bush has also done a lot to improve homeland security (with much more to be done) and has done much to curb homeland terrorism (although some might say he has gone overboard in some ways to do this). Under Bush there has been many tax breaks which have helped even the poorest (I know... they even helped me!)

Clinton was a better public speaker, and was also better at gaining international support for things. Even though he was sometimes messing around in the Oval Orifice (er... I mean... Office), he did later do his best to make amends, and continued to do his work to (what I believe) the best of his abilities (despite his struggling marriage).

Has Bush embraced the "New World Order"? Yes. So did Clinton. So did many of our Presidents. The world itself is basically embracing it, so the USA is simply going along with many other "super powers" into this Utopian concept. Is Bush a Christian? He says he is, but one really never knows for sure until Judgment Day. Is Clinton a Christian? Same answer.

If muttering some swear words under your breath, or joking about something inappropriate, or committing adultery, or any other sin is the way we draw the line if someone is a Christian or not, there would not be very many on the "Christian" side of the line. In fact, there wouldn't be ANYONE on that side of the line but Christ.

But for the grace of God I go,

Rock

Amen, amen

[SueQ]

Oh, and I almost forgot. A few nights after the Ozzy bash a movie with nude scenes was shown while Bush was flying on air force one.

My sister watched a movie with nudity once in the house........I guess I'm not saved, then.....and hey.....I saw "Eastern Promises"......guess I'm doomed to hell....:rolleyes:

[Jake]

I've seen movies with nudity myself...guess I'm more on my way to hell than those of you who only had second hand contact with such...

[rossid]

I had not even heard of "Eastern Promises"...

[Evanescence]

Man, i go chasin' foxes for a while and....:eek:

First off; Where's the Reference point for the term "Christian" or "True Christian"

I think there are far worse things to look at in regards to Bush and his fruits, than his jokes and meeting with Ozzy. I think Backpacker is nit-picking a little bit on that one...as is the guy who runs the ministry that was quoted.

However, I think we DO have the right to look at, dig up and/or judge if thats what you call it) our politicians. Bush is a clear double talking liar with conflicts of interests thru the roof.

Thats enough for me....

Oh...and imagine what we DON'T know about our leaders?

[lilmikey]

Middletree,

Would you say that this is 'President Bush harmlessly joking about Ozzy's lyrics'?

Dude you seriously need to chill. Instead of trying to figure out if Bush has salvation or not you need to evaluate your own salvation

And for the record I'd rather see a President who lives like the devil" actually be a good president and do what a president should do, than have a president who is a saint and not do jack squat for his country. Im more concerned of the way he runs this country than his religion dude.

Wether or not President Bush likes Ozzy or not is the least of my worries. President Clinton may or may not have liked Ozzy but he sure loved his "enemies". He sold us out to them every chance he got.

As long as he is a good President(and he is). I dont give a rats tail if Bush likes Ozzy.

[Jesuslove]

First off, if you start out biased, you will never see the good things that any President has done. I personally did not like Clinton as a president, but I think he did some good things. I'm not sure Clinton is a Christian, but that is not for me to judge. If I was a fruit inspector, I would have to say Clinton lied to the American public under oath about having sex with an intern (which was adultery because he is a married man) and he did other immoral things. But fortunately, immorality will not send someone automatically to hell -- for if anyone does sin, they can go to God the Father, who is faithful and just to forgive that person and cleanse them from all unrighteous (if they are born again in the first place, of course.) So, no, as much as I would like to say that Clinton is not saved because of his fruit, I cannot know -- for only God knows, and only God sees his heart.
Pouye, with all due respect, you are not an American, and you have no idea how bad our government has been over the last 7 years. We are the most hated nation in the world. Our economy has suffered under Bush. Fuel prices are higher. We're involved in a war based on lies. Bush LIED to the American people to get us involved in a war. At least when Clinton lied, nobody died. Bush is not a leader, but a follower, and he's outspoken as a Christian, that is, if he's a true Christian. As a citizen of the US, I have the right to judge my leader. I give him a failing grade.

As far as Bush goes, his marital relationship has been much better than several other US presidents. That is a big plus for him. He has personally visited US troops on the battlefield on many occasions, even sacrificing precious family time to do it. Bush was handed an economy that was going down fast by the Clinton administration and did a good job of pulling it up out of the gutter. Bush hasn't done very well with continuing good economic practices, however -- doing pretty much what the Clinton Administration did to get into the hole in the first place (overspending).
Bush never served in the military. His father took care of him. Our nations financial position has deteriorated greatly under Bush. Bush spent far too much while in the White House. Anyone that doubts me, go look at the national budget and national debt figures under the Bush years.

...It is a fact that Clinton neglected the military (meaning he didn't put lots of money and effort into making it better, not necessarily that he made it worse). It is also a fact that Bush has improved the military in the USA, but not in every way or place (still lots more to be done).
I want to see your facts on this. Bush improved the military? how? when? I want facts, rather than random comments.

Some say the USA should have never gone to war with Iraq. There were pros and cons, and there was no doubt that a very important ally (Israel) was being threatened by Iraq (not just in words, but with force as per the Gulf War). The USA has decided several times to act in force to protect their ally, Israel. Clinton routinely did this (authorizing dozens of stealth missions to take out military facilities that were being erected in the "no fly zone").

Clinton let the "inspector issue" slide in Iraq, which possibly could have prevented the Iraq/US war.
Bull. Period.. this is bull. how did Clinton let the inspector issue slide. If Bush listened to the inspectors, we wouldn't have been at war today and we wouldn't have spent trillions of dollars. We would be safer today. We wouldn't be the most hated nation in the world. ALL because of Bush.

As far as how well Bush has done domestically, I think pretty well. Our economy is pretty strong, but it is starting to show signs of being stretched by overspending (especially militarily, which might not be a bad thing since we are still engaged militarily). Bush has also done a lot to improve homeland security (with much more to be done) and has done much to curb homeland terrorism (although some might say he has gone overboard in some ways to do this). Under Bush there has been many tax breaks which have helped even the poorest (I know... they even helped me!)
Come on!!! Tell me of the tax breaks to the poor! Come on..... please share! The middle class is shrinking. The rich have gotten richer under Bush, and there are many more poor Americans today than there were 7 years ago. What has Bush done??....NOTHING. What has he done to improve security on the homefront? Not much. What specific tax breaks have helped the poorest? He rejected the bill a few months ago which would have insured impoverished uninsured children. Bush is for the rich. He could give a cra# about the poor. Look at Katrina. He didn't go to New Orleans for several days. Meanwhile, he was fundraising in California. Bush is the worst President ever HANDS down!



But for the grace of God I go,

Rock
Hey Rock.. but for the grace of God I go...... not good enough for the leader of the Free World. He's failed as president, and he's failed the American people, and he's failed the World. We deserve better.

[middletree]

Pouye, with all due respect, you are not an American,

Actually, he is. He is a missionary serving in another part of the world, but he's an American.

Fuel prices are higher.

How the heck is that the doing of any President? Have you taken Economics 101?

At least when Clinton lied, nobody died.

Vince Foster, Ron Brown, ...but I digress.

Bush spent far too much while in the White House.

I agree with you on that one.

Tell me of the tax breaks to the poor!
The poor don't pay taxes.

[SueQ]

Good points Middletree...thank you.....

[DareDevil]

Well, I suppose that you lot have more insight on how Bush is as a president, but for us Europeans he looks like a cowboy. Anyway, I still hold more sympathies for your Republicans than for your Democrats which is part of the reason why I hope that the Republican candidate will win the next election.

Another reason is the fact that I think that there is a real danger that people would blame the Democrats for “loosing the war in Iraq”, if their candidate should win the election. This doesn’t change the fact that I still hold more sympathies for the Republicans, but I also think that they should not be allowed to dodge their responsibility.

[middletree]

Well, I suppose that you lot have more insight on how Bush is as a president, but for us Europeans he looks like a cowboy.

Yes, but the British press is very biased, and it's hard for anyone, no matter how discerning, to not be affected by biased press.

[middletree]

Another reason is the fact that I think that there is a real danger that people would blame the Democrats for “loosing the war in Iraq”, if their candidate should win the election. This doesn’t change the fact that I still hold more sympathies for the Republicans, but I also think that they should not be allowed to dodge their responsibility.

As much as I am against the war in Iraq, and have been since the beginning, I do acknowledge that Bush thought he was doing good, and both parties agreed to it at the time. More importantly, Democrats are more likely to stand in the way of anti-abortion legislation. This is relevant in light of the fact that a lot more innocent lives are lost to abortion than to the war in Iraq.

[Evanescence]

As much as I am against the war in Iraq, and have been since the beginning, I do acknowledge that Bush thought he was doing good, and both parties agreed to it at the time. More importantly, Democrats are more likely to stand in the way of anti-abortion legislation. This is relevant in light of the fact that a lot more innocent lives are lost to abortion than to the war in Iraq.

I never thought this. Nothing in Washington is done..."for the better good" or to.."help out our friends"...or..."to bring about democracy"...

Nothing. Nothing happens by chance or by accident in Washington. Nothing.

Only power, money and the force feeding of Americanism gets done in Wash these days. The Iraq war was planned YEARS in advance by think tanks like PNAC and the CFR...this is documented and proven. The Pentagon was planning and pushing this as well. The puppets found a willing ego-maniac to pull the switch...and he did.

Now we're in a bad way...

[rossid]

Well, I suppose that you lot have more insight on how Bush is as a president, but for us Europeans he looks like a cowboy. Anyway, I still hold more sympathies for your Republicans than for your Democrats which is part of the reason why I hope that the Republican candidate will win the next election.

Another reason is the fact that I think that there is a real danger that people would blame the Democrats for “loosing the war in Iraq”, if their candidate should win the election. This doesn’t change the fact that I still hold more sympathies for the Republicans, but I also think that they should not be allowed to dodge their responsibility.

"Bill"-ary said something about his recently but this certainly has been around for a while.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1211578,00.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071126/chesler

I would rather have a cowboy than a nurse maid as a president.

[middletree]

I never thought this. Nothing in Washington is done..."for the better good" or to.."help out our friends"...or..."to bring about democracy"...

This has been discussed in numerous threads, most started by you. I think you missed my point, though. That post wasn't about Bush's intentions. It was about the fact that we get more upset about lives lost in the war in Iraq than we do about innocent kids being torn apart by medical instruments. While both are tragic, the latter is a bigger tragedy.

[Jesuslove]

"Bill"-ary said something about his recently but this certainly has been around for a while.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1211578,00.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071126/chesler

I would rather have a cowboy than a nurse maid as a president.

um... NO. I'd rather have a nursemaid.. someone who is knowledgeable, compassionate, understanding and smart.

[DareDevil]

Yes, but the British press is very biased, and it's hard for anyone, no matter how discerning, to not be affected by biased press.
You really think that I am from the UK???


I suppose I have to thank you for your compliment on my English! :D

[middletree]

You really think that I am from the UK???


I suppose I have to thank you for your compliment on my English! :D

Where are you from?

[DareDevil]

Where are you from?
Germany. :)

[middletree]

Germany. :)

Oh. Well, your English is very good, then. You did say "loosing" when you should have said "losing" earlier in this thread, but we'll let that slide.

Your English is better than my German. I lived in Germany for 18 months, and can barely remember how to count to ten. Of course, that was 20 years ago.

[DareDevil]

Ah well, mistakes happen. I still try to avoid them, of course. ;)

Anyway, I think we better stop our thread hijacking now. ;)

[Genna14]

There are so many things I could say about this.

First off let me say this, in the Bible, God tells us to submit to the authorities set before us. President Bush is that authority. Also, you gotta remove the plank from your own eye before you pull the splinter out of your neighbor's eye! Let us examine ourselves before we judge our President. God let him be there for a reason and all things work together for the good of those who love Him!

Also, in reading that "news article", I saw no SOLID proof of any of the claims. You can't believe all you read online, or even in some papers. These claims should be researched a little more thoroughly.

[rossid]

um... NO. I'd rather have a nursemaid.. someone who is knowledgeable, compassionate, understanding and smart.Perfect for foreign relations, economic policy, etc. Not.

Ed: I feel bad, sincerely, and want to apologize for the personal nature of my comments toward you.

[Pouye]

Did you know that historically, no US president has been popular if they have instigated a long-term war? War weariness is a big factor in popularity -- for when your children are dying on the battlefield, it is hard to like the Commander in Chief who sent them.

I think there is nothing wrong with "grading" your President, as long as you grade the President fairly. If you listen to either one side of the media or the other, Bush will either come out smelling like a rose or come out smelling like something else.

Most likely, Bush is somewhere in between -- and truth claims need to be verified, as another poster in this thread mentioned (Genna20). Much of our perspective on a President will be tainted by whether we think he/she is good willed or not. By good willed, I mean that the person really wanted to do the right thing for what he/she thought were the right reasons.

Those who believe Bush is a no-good-liar who is bad willed, everything he does will be tainted by that perception. Those who think he is a good willed person who genuinely wanted to do what was best for the American people will not be as hard on him if/when he makes a mistake, doesn't come through on something, or changes his mind.

I am one of those gullible sheep who actually assumes good will in people most of the time. In other words, I start out with that foundation, and then go from there. I realize that some people are not good-willed, and they will eventually show their true colors. However, if you already think a person is bad-willed, ANYTHING they do wrong will raise red flags and will be labeled as "true colors of ill-will", even if they are not.

When Evanescence says, "Imagine what we are NOT being told..." I wonder if we knew more of the whole truth that we might actually think better of Bush than worse of him. Assuming that he is an evil madman trying to cover up his evil tracks all of the time will cause you to imagine the worst, not the best.

I remember how the Christian right "demonized" Bill Clinton. However, there were a few lone Christian voices who actually were sympathetic, even regarding his faith. I remember those voices, and how they, too, were demonized. I think we should be careful before we deal out judgment, even if the person actually did something stupid, wrong or embarrassing.

Most Presidents in their last term are not popular, and presidents who carry the burden of a long-term war are never popular. However, the "War on Terror" may actually prove to be, in the long-term, something that really needed to happen. The war to remove Saddam from power -- it is proving to be a pickle for Bush, who must spend billions to have enough well-equipped troops there to be effective, and yet he cannot afford to simply pull the plug, either -- for he has made many promises to the "being established" Iraqi government that he needs to keep. Tough spot to be in.

Rock

[clemsontigers23]

President Bush is not Jesus Christ. When I look at President Bush, there are things that he's done that I despise: No Child Left Behind, the furtherance of NAFTA and other free trade agreements which have caused millions to lose their jobs (including my grandpa), and the jury's still out on the War in Iraq.

However, I truly believe Bush is a Christian. He has done nothing to suggest otherwise. Many could argue the War in Iraq is Dick Cheney's war, who I despise. Cheney is the one with oil connections and he's the expert in foreign relations. Bush's knowledge of foreign policy is weak at best, so one of his major advisors in foreign policy has been Mr. Cheney. President Bush was also presented with faulty knowledge, though I'm not convinced the WMD's were never there. I firmly believe they were (or are) there and we either don't know what happened to them or we haven't found them.

Either way, Bush has brought God back into the White House. He's a much better president than Bill Clinton, that's for sure. Most blame Clinton for the national debt. Clinton also had a chance to kill Osama bin Laden but refused to pull the trigger, not to mention the fact he left Iraq unchecked. I believe Bush is a Christian and unless someone can show me more than this filth Mr. Backpacker is spewing, I will not judge this man as being a fraud. That is not my place. I'm a fraud, and so are you when you think about it. Bush is not without sin, but neither are we. We're all hypocrites, so nobody on here has any right to accuse George Bush of lying about his faith in Jesus Christ and his salvation. It's the same with Mike Huckabee. He has stood by his faith in the midst of immense criticism from the un-Godly and at the risk of committing political suicide, but many on here accuse him of being a fraud. I don't know why it's so hard to believe people when they say they're Christians, but I for one would be saddened by the constant bombardment of false accusations by my Christian brothers and sisters.

[Jesuslove]

President Bush is not Jesus Christ. When I look at President Bush, there are things that he's done that I despise: No Child Left Behind, the furtherance of NAFTA and other free trade agreements which have caused millions to lose their jobs (including my grandpa), and the jury's still out on the War in Iraq.

However, I truly believe Bush is a Christian. He has done nothing to suggest otherwise. Many could argue the War in Iraq is Dick Cheney's war, who I despise. Cheney is the one with oil connections and he's the expert in foreign relations. Bush's knowledge of foreign policy is weak at best, so one of his major advisors in foreign policy has been Mr. Cheney. President Bush was also presented with faulty knowledge, though I'm not convinced the WMD's were never there. I firmly believe they were (or are) there and we either don't know what happened to them or we haven't found them.

Either way, Bush has brought God back into the White House. He's a much better president than Bill Clinton, that's for sure. Most blame Clinton for the national debt. Clinton also had a chance to kill Osama bin Laden but refused to pull the trigger, not to mention the fact he left Iraq unchecked. I believe Bush is a Christian and unless someone can show me more than this filth Mr. Backpacker is spewing, I will not judge this man as being a fraud. That is not my place. I'm a fraud, and so are you when you think about it. Bush is not without sin, but neither are we. We're all hypocrites, so nobody on here has any right to accuse George Bush of lying about his faith in Jesus Christ and his salvation. It's the same with Mike Huckabee. He has stood by his faith in the midst of immense criticism from the un-Godly and at the risk of committing political suicide, but many on here accuse him of being a fraud. I don't know why it's so hard to believe people when they say they're Christians, but I for one would be saddened by the constant bombardment of false accusations by my Christian brothers and sisters.
Why can't you believe Bush is a liar? His actions don't match his words. Look at how much Clinton has done to raise money and awareness for HIV in Africa. All the while, Bush holds hands with the leaders of Saudi Arabia. He may claim to be a Christian, but really, his actions don't show it. I don't understand why you dismiss Bill Clinton as a Christian, but just because Bush says he's a Christian, you are absolutely sure he's honest.

Also, Bush is our leader. You can't blame Cheney for the war. Bush ultimately is responsible as our president.

[Gaudete]

Ummmm.......where is Congress's liability in this debate? President Bush does not act alone, and I refuse to solely blame him for all our country's problems. What about them?

[clemsontigers23]

Why can't you believe Bush is a liar? His actions don't match his words. Look at how much Clinton has done to raise money and awareness for HIV in Africa. All the while, Bush holds hands with the leaders of Saudi Arabia. He may claim to be a Christian, but really, his actions don't show it. I don't understand why you dismiss Bill Clinton as a Christian, but just because Bush says he's a Christian, you are absolutely sure he's honest.

Also, Bush is our leader. You can't blame Cheney for the war. Bush ultimately is responsible as our president.

I never dismissed Clinton as a Christian, but the whole deal with Monica doesn't help my opinion of him. If you would stop looking at Bush with hatred you would probably see some of the good things he's done while he's been in office.

[middletree]

I think we should be careful of using a man's Christianity as a reason to say he's good as his job. Carter is a Christian. He had no business being President.

[Pouye]

I think we should be careful of using a man's Christianity as a reason to say he's good as his job. Carter is a Christian. He had no business being President.

Good point. I've know Christian business owners that were terrible at running a business, and secular ones who do a great job. The Presidency, after all, is a job -- and one that takes specific abilities and skills, as well as wisdom. It is also a job that is very demanding emotionally, as well as in other ways. Having solid principles and ethics to guide you will help -- but even so, the President is just one man and there are a lot of people who are involved in running a country, not just the man or woman at the top. Many of the things that Presidents get blamed for (because they are ultimately responsible for them even if they had little or nothing to do with them) are things that they couldn't change, anyway.

Rock

[clemsontigers23]

I think we should be careful of using a man's Christianity as a reason to say he's good as his job. Carter is a Christian. He had no business being President.

It's not his Christianity, though that is a bonus. I just think he's done an overall good job and most people would disagree with me, but whatever. That's their opinion and most of them don't know anymore than what the media tells them. 75% of Americans couldn't give you a good reason for not liking George W. Bush.

[middletree]

It's not his Christianity, though that is a bonus. I just think he's done an overall good job and most people would disagree with me, but whatever. That's their opinion and most of them don't know anymore than what the media tells them. 75% of Americans couldn't give you a good reason for not liking George W. Bush.

I agree with this post 100%.

[Valpo]

good post Clemson

Big problem with this country is the tendency to exaggerate everything. Both sides of the aisle do this. And overall the President has done a decent job. To be called "the worst president ever" is a good example of American exaggeration.

[sandyandporter]

good post Clemson

Big problem with this country is the tendency to exaggerate everything. Both sides of the aisle do this. And overall the President has done a decent job. To be called "the worst president ever" is a good example of American exaggeration.


Hee, hee. I couldn't resist pointing out your exaggeration. ;) Let's just say that alot of things get exaggerated....:P

[Valpo]

Hee, hee. I couldn't resist pointing out your exaggeration. ;) Let's just say that alot of things get exaggerated....:P

Maybe I have ironic humor? :D

[Andi]

Maybe I have ironic humor? :D

isn't that an oxy-moron?

:D :P

[sandyandporter]

isn't that an oxy-moron?

:D :P

You may not agree with what he says but you don't need to call him a moron! ;)

[rossid]

I've briefly checked this on TruthorFiction.com and it looks real.
>
> Montana story
>
>
>
>
> A President Bush we never see:
>
>
>
>
> Story by: Bruce Vincent
>
>
> For those of us who sometimes find ourselves
> having doubts about our President, here is an
> excellent piece -- worth every minute it takes to
> read it. This story is from Bruce Vincent of Libby ,
> Montana who had gone to the White House with others
> to receive an award from the President. He writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> I've written the following narrative to
> chronicle the day of the award ceremony in DC. I'm
> still working on a press release but the White House
> press corps has yet to provide a photo to go with
> it. When the photo comes I'll ship it out. When you
> get done reading this you'll understand the dilemma
> I face in telling this story beyond my circle of
> close friends.
>
>
> Stepping into the Oval Office, each of us
> was introduced to the President and Mrs. Bush. We
> shook hands and participated in small talk. When the
> President was told that we were from Libby, Montana
> , I reminded him that Marc Racicot is our native son
> and the President offered his warm thoughts about
> Governor Racicot.
>
>
> I have to tell you, I was blown away by two
> things upon entering the office. First, the Oval
> Office sense of 'place' is unreal. The President
> later shared a story of Russian President Putin
> entering the room prepared to tackle the President
> in a tough negotiation and upon entering, the
> atheist muttered his first words to the President
> and they were "Oh, my God."
>
>
> I concurred. I could feel the history in my
> bones. Second, the man that inhabits the office
> engaged me with a firm handshake and a look that can
> only be described as penetrating. Warm, alive, fully
> engaged, disarmingly penetrating. I was admittedly
> concerned about meeting the man. I think all of us
> have an inner hope that the most powerful man in our
> country is worthy of the responsibility and
> authority that we bestow upon them through our vote.
>
>
> I admit that part of me was afraid that I
> would be let down by the moment -- that the person
> and the place could not meet the lofty expectations
> of my fantasy world. This says nothing about my
> esteem for President Bush but just my practical
> realization that reality may not match my 'dream.'
>
>
> Once inside the office, President Bush got
> right down to business and, standing in front of his
> desk, handed out the awards one at a time while
> posing for photos with the winners and Mrs. Bush.
> With the mission accomplished, the President and
> Mrs. Bush relaxed and initiated a lengthy, informal
> conversation about a number of things with our
> entire small group. He and the First Lady talked
> about such things as the rug in the office. It is
> traditionally designed by the First Lady to make a
> statement about the President, and Mrs. Bush chose a
> brilliant yellow sunburst pattern to reflect 'hope.'
> President Bush talked about the absolute need to
> believe that with hard work and faith in God there
> is every reason to start each day in the Oval Office
> with hope. He and the First Lady were asked about
> the impact of the Presidency on their marriage and,
> with an arm casually wrapped around Laura, he said
> that he thought the place may be hard on weak
> marriages but that it had the ability to make strong
> marriages even stronger and that he was blessed with
> a strong one.
>
>
> After about 30 or 35 minutes, it was time to
> go. By then we were all relaxed and I felt as if I
> had just had an excellent visit with a friend. The
> President and First Lady made one more pass down the
> line of awardees, shaking hands and offering
> congratulations. When the President shook my hand I
> said, "Thank you Mr. President and God bless you
> and your family." He was already in motion to the
> next person in line, but he stopped abruptly turned
> fully back to me, gave me a piercing look, renewed
> the vigor of his handshake and said, "Thank you --
> and God bless you and yours as well."
>
>
> On our way out of the office we were to
> leave by the glass doors on the west side of the
> office. I was the last person in the exit line. As I
> shook his hand one final time, President Bush said,
> "I'll be sure to tell Marc hello and give him your
> regards."
>
>
> I then did something that surprised even me.
> I said to him, "Mr. President, I know you are a busy
> man and your time is precious. I also know you to be
> a man of strong faith and I have a favor to ask of
> you. "
>
>
> As he shook my hand he looked me in the eye
> and said, "Just name it." I told him that my
> step-Mom was at that moment in a hospital in
> Kalispell, Montana , having a tumor removed from her
> skull and it would mean a great deal to me if he
> would consider adding her to his prayers that day.
> He grabbed me by the arm and took me back toward his
> desk as he said, "So that's it. I could tell that
> something is weighing heavy on your heart today. I
> could see it in your eyes. This explains it."
>
>
> From the top drawer of his desk he retrieved
> a pen and a note card with his seal on it and asked,
> "How do you spell her name?" He then jotted a note
> to her while discussing the importance of family and
> the strength of prayer. When he handed me the card ,
> he asked about the surgery and the prognosis. I told
> him we were hoping that it is not a recurrence of an
> earlier cancer and that, if it is, they can get it
> all with this surgery.
>
>
> He said, "If it's okay with you, we'll take
> care of the prayer right now. Would you pray with
> me?" I told him yes and he turned to the staff that
> remained in the office and hand motioned the folks
> to step back or leave. He said, "Bruce and I would
> like some private time for a prayer."
>
>
> As they left he turned back to me and took
> my hands in his. I was prepared to do a traditional
> prayer stance -- standing with each other with heads
> bowed. Instead, he reached for my head with his
> right hand and pulling gently forward, he placed my
> head on his shoulder. With his left arm on my
> mid-back, he pulled me to him in a prayerful
> embrace.
>
>
> He started to pray softly. I started to cry.
> He continued his prayer for Loretta and for God's
> perfect will to be done. I cried some more. My body
> shook a bit as I cried and he just held tighter. He
> closed by asking God's blessing on Loretta and the
> family during the coming months. I stepped away from
> our embrace, wiped my eyes, swiped at the tears I'd
> left on his shoulder, and looked into the eyes of
> our president. I thanked him as best I could and
> told him that me and my family would continue
> praying for him and his.
>
>
> As I write this account down and reflect
> upon what it means, I have to tell you that all I
> really know is that his simple act left me humbled
> and believing. I so hoped that the man I thought him
> to be was the man that he is. I know that our nation
> needs a man such as this in the Oval Office. George
> W. Bush is the real deal. I've read Internet stories
> about the President praying with troops in hospitals
> and other such uplifting accounts. Each time I read
> them I hoped them to be true and not an Internet
> perpetuated myth. This one, I know to be true. I was
> there. He is real. He has a pile of incredible stuff
> on his plate each day -- and yet he is tuned in so
> well to the here and now that he 'sensed' something
> heavy on my heart. He took time out of his life to
> care, to share, and to seek God's blessing for my
> family in a simple man-to-man, father-to-father,
> son-to-son, husband-to-husband, Christian-
> to-Christian prayerful embrace. He's not what I had
> hoped he would be. He is, in fact, so very, very
> much more.
>
>
> Bruce Vincent's encounter with the
> president-Truth!

> http://www.truthorfiction.com/ rumors/ v/
> vincent.htm
>

[clemsontigers23]

That was truly inspiring, rossid. I knew our president was a man of faith and this only confirms it.