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Salome
11-25-2007, 12:52 PM
Read this article at Crosswalk.com and was wanting to hear what others thought about it:

A Shocking “Confession” from Willow Creek Community Church
Bob Burney
October 30, 2007

If you are older than 40 the name Benjamin Spock is more than familiar. It was Spock that told an entire generation of parents to take it easy, don’t discipline your children and allow them to express themselves. Discipline, he told us, would warp a child’s fragile ego. Millions followed this guru of child development and he remained unchallenged among child rearing professionals. However, before his death Dr. Spock made an amazing discovery: he was wrong. In fact, he said:

We have reared a generation of brats. Parents aren't firm enough with their children for fear of losing their love or incurring their resentment. This is a cruel deprivation that we professionals have imposed on mothers and fathers. Of course, we did it with the best of intentions. We didn't realize until it was too late how our know-it-all attitude was undermining the self assurance of parents.

Oops.

Something just as momentous, in my opinion, just happened in the evangelical community. For most of a generation evangelicals have been romanced by the “seeker sensitive” movement spawned by Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. The guru of this movement is Bill Hybels. He and others have been telling us for decades to throw out everything we have previously thought and been taught about church growth and replace it with a new paradigm, a new way to do ministry.

Perhaps inadvertently, with this “new wave” of ministry came a de-emphasis on taking personal responsibility for Bible study combined with an emphasis on felt-needs based “programs” and slick marketing.

The size of the crowd rather than the depth of the heart determined success. If the crowd was large then surely God was blessing the ministry. Churches were built by demographic studies, professional strategists, marketing research, meeting “felt needs” and sermons consistent with these techniques. We were told that preaching was out, relevance was in. Doctrine didn’t matter nearly as much as innovation. If it wasn’t “cutting edge” and consumer friendly it was doomed. The mention of sin, salvation and sanctification were taboo and replaced by Starbucks, strategy and sensitivity.

Thousands of pastors hung on every word that emanated from the lips of the church growth experts. Satellite seminars were packed with hungry church leaders learning the latest way to “do church.” The promise was clear: thousands of people and millions of dollars couldn’t be wrong. Forget what people need, give them what they want. How can you argue with the numbers? If you dared to challenge the “experts” you were immediately labeled as a “traditionalist,” a throwback to the 50s, a stubborn dinosaur unwilling to change with the times.

All that changed recently.

Willow Creek has released the results of a multi-year study on the effectiveness of their programs and philosophy of ministry. The study’s findings are in a new book titled Reveal: Where Are You?, co-authored by Cally Parkinson and Greg Hawkins, executive pastor of Willow Creek Community Church. Hybels himself called the findings “earth shaking,” “ground breaking” and “mind blowing.” And no wonder: it seems that the “experts” were wrong.

The report reveals that most of what they have been doing for these many years and what they have taught millions of others to do is not producing solid disciples of Jesus Christ. Numbers yes, but not disciples. It gets worse. Hybels laments:

Some of the stuff that we have put millions of dollars into thinking it would really help our people grow and develop spiritually, when the data actually came back it wasn’t helping people that much. Other things that we didn’t put that much money into and didn’t put much staff against is stuff our people are crying out for.

If you simply want a crowd, the “seeker sensitive” model produces results. If you want solid, sincere, mature followers of Christ, it’s a bust. In a shocking confession, Hybels states:

We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between services, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.

Incredibly, the guru of church growth now tells us that people need to be reading their bibles and taking responsibility for their spiritual growth.

Just as Spock’s “mistake” was no minor error, so the error of the seeker sensitive movement is monumental in its scope. The foundation of thousands of American churches is now discovered to be mere sand. The one individual who has had perhaps the greatest influence on the American church in our generation has now admitted his philosophy of ministry, in large part, was a “mistake.” The extent of this error defies measurement.

Perhaps the most shocking thing of all in this revelation coming out of Willow Creek is in a summary statement by Greg Hawkins:

Our dream is that we fundamentally change the way we do church. That we take out a clean sheet of paper and we rethink all of our old assumptions. Replace it with new insights. Insights that are informed by research and rooted in Scripture. Our dream is really to discover what God is doing and how he’s asking us to transform this planet.

Isn’t that what we were told when this whole seeker-sensitive thing started? The church growth gurus again want to throw away their old assumptions and “take out a clean sheet of paper” and, presumably, come up with a new paradigm for ministry.

Should this be encouraging?

Please note that “rooted in Scripture” still follows “rethink,” “new insights” and “informed research.” Someone, it appears, still might not get it. Unless there is a return to simple biblical (and relevant) principles, a new faulty scheme will replace the existing one and another generation will follow along as the latest piper plays.

What we should find encouraging, at least, in this “confession” coming from the highest ranks of the Willow Creek Association is that they are coming to realize that their existing “model” does not help people grow into mature followers of Jesus Christ. Given the massive influence this organization has on the American church today, let us pray that God would be pleased to put structures in place at Willow Creek that foster not mere numeric growth, but growth in grace.

Bob Burney is Salem Communications’ award-winning host of Bob Burney Live, heard weekday afternoons on WRFD-AM 880 in Columbus, Ohio. Contact Bob at bob@wrfd.com.

Find this article at: http://www.crosswalk.com/11558438/

TN3Dmom
11-25-2007, 05:52 PM
First off, kudos to Hybels for admitting they made a mistake. That floors me in this day and age to hear someone in the public eye fess up to anything. I believe small groups are the key to developing disciples. I don't know how anyone ever gets plugged in and matures in their faith if they only attend church on Sunday morning at any church, much less a mega church where you may not see the same faces from one week to the next. Small groups foster deeper discussion on the Bible, they offer a more social, family-type atmosphere, they provide an opportunity for mission work, and most importantly, I feel, they hold the members accountable. If I miss church for a month, I would hope someone would notice, but if I don't attend my small group more than twice, I will receive calls. Also, if one of my dear friends from my group sees me exhibiting questionable judgement, I would hope they would lovingly correct me, or ask if I need help. I would certainly do that for anyone in my circle. I know that I did not truly feel like an actively growing and learning part of the body of Christ until I joined a group. I think there is nothing wrong with worshipping in a huge church, as long as the small groups are thriving.

SueQ
11-25-2007, 05:57 PM
I am seeing a lot more home meetings and home churches developing.....while WCC may have just noticed the need, many others have not....

rossid
11-25-2007, 07:33 PM
I also applaud this church undertaking such a study.

It oversimplifies it a bit but we have these purposes at church:

bring them in (see the lost come to faith in Jesus)
build them up (small groups)
prepare them (more growth through discipleship)
send them out (kind of like the sign someone mentioned at the exit to their church: "You are now entering the mission field."

Jason
11-25-2007, 07:41 PM
I wrote this six years ago:

God Sensitive Churches

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men.
Colossians 3:23

Churches have always tried different techniques to increase the number of Christians. Some have succeeded. Some have failed.

A popular technique these days is being a "seeker sensitive" church. Seeker sensitive churches focus on gearing their services and other activities to reach out to the unchurched. How a church actually puts this into practice varies widely. Some churches replace organs and hymns with guitars and contemporary music. Other churches add multimedia presentations and dramatic performances. Some preachers shorten their sermons and attempt to make them more relevant to the unchurched.

While I could criticize some of these techniques, I'm not going to here. What I would rather look at is the whole seeker sensitive focus.

Does the Bible teach us to raise up seeker sensitive churches? Or does the Bible teach us to raise up God sensitive churches?

Whatever we do we need to "do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men."

I have heard of churches surveying the unchurched to see why they didn't come to church. Then the churches would modify their services accordingly. All this to be more seeker sensitive.

How much better to be God sensitive. We need to be sensitive to God's desires for our local body. To get on our knees and ask God how He would like us to hold our church services.

God has a much clearer idea on how to bring people to Him. On the Day of Pentecost, He poured out His Spirit on the believers. A Spirit-filled Peter preached an anointed sermon and 3000 people became believers.

Was Peter seeker sensitive? Well, some ridiculed Peter and the believers thinking their Spirit-filled behavior appeared to be drunkenness. Instead Peter was God sensitive and preached a fiery sermon about turning away from sins. Some listeners may have been turned off, but the 3000 true seekers became believers.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to run their church. But I believe the Bible makes it clear who should run our churches.

Seeker sensitive? Or God sensitive? As for me and my house, we'll serve the Lord.

in hiding
11-25-2007, 08:40 PM
First off, kudos to Hybels for admitting they made a mistake. That floors me in this day and age to hear someone in the public eye fess up to anything. I believe small groups are the key to developing disciples. I don't know how anyone ever gets plugged in and matures in their faith if they only attend church on Sunday morning at any church, much less a mega church where you may not see the same faces from one week to the next. Small groups foster deeper discussion on the Bible, they offer a more social, family-type atmosphere, they provide an opportunity for mission work, and most importantly, I feel, they hold the members accountable. If I miss church for a month, I would hope someone would notice, but if I don't attend my small group more than twice, I will receive calls. Also, if one of my dear friends from my group sees me exhibiting questionable judgement, I would hope they would lovingly correct me, or ask if I need help. I would certainly do that for anyone in my circle. I know that I did not truly feel like an actively growing and learning part of the body of Christ until I joined a group. I think there is nothing wrong with worshipping in a huge church, as long as the small groups are thriving.

first of all I agree with a lot of what you say, i just want to add a little to it. Willow Creek (i'm only speaking for the main campus) does advocate small groups and they have their "believers" service on a different day than on Sunday. They do recognize the fact that the small group is essential in a huge church (and prob in every believers life) but they don't really push it too much. I am really glad to see that they want to teach people how to have a relationship and teach people how to study the bible for their own...sort of a transistion from the God is Rad he's my Dad attitude we see in a lot of churches (willow incl) and make it something real. I'm also glad to see a church do some real self evaluation of what they're doing AND doing something about it; esp when it's something of this magnitude.

cheewiee
11-25-2007, 09:19 PM
A couple things...

I honestly believe that a God focused Church will be a seeker aware church. Look at the people who followed Jesus. There were two types, the first the religious. Jesus was always surrounded by Pharisees and Sadducees. The second were the dredges of society. The Tax Collectors, the Prostitutes, the Publicans...

I believe that most churches fall into one of two categories. The ones that are focused on the believers, the other focused on the seeker. The Church needs to do both quite frankly. The Church, should not raise artificial (and often cultural) barriers between the seeker and God. This often happens, and it is one of the things that I really like about the seeker sensitive movement.

On the flip side of the coin, the church can become so focused on the seeker, we forget the Gospel. We forget that going to church doesn't make someone saved. Many forget that the seeker needs to progress from seeker to believer.

So while the church should have a focus on the seeker, they should also have a focus on moving the seeker into believer, and from believer into one being sent.

The way my church puts it is simple, direct, and to the point. Seek, Save, Send... http://mosaicchurch.tv

TN3Dmom
11-25-2007, 09:54 PM
I am really glad to see that they want to teach people how to have a relationship and teach people how to study the bible for their own...sort of a transistion from the God is Rad he's my Dad attitude we see in a lot of churches (willow incl) and make it something real.

That brings me to this question, which may be off topic, but am I the only one who gets really bent outta shape when people refer to God as "Dad" or "Daddy"?. I think I read from your post you may not be crazy about that as well. Sorry if I misunderstood. I know there are several names of God in the Bible, but I don't believe He's ever referred to as Daddy. It seems such a worldy way to address our Holy Father. I think there should be more reverence when we discuss, and especially when we address God. The sooner that movement goes away the better!

rossid
11-25-2007, 10:03 PM
It does not bother me as much as it does you but I feel it is very irreverent.

Jason
11-25-2007, 10:05 PM
That brings me to this question, which may be off topic, but am I the only one who gets really bent outta shape when people refer to God as "Dad" or "Daddy"?. I think I read from your post you may not be crazy about that as well. Sorry if I misunderstood. I know there are several names of God in the Bible, but I don't believe He's ever referred to as Daddy. It seems such a worldy way to address our Holy Father. I think there should be more reverence when we discuss, and especially when we address God. The sooner that movement goes away the better!

KJV Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

I've been told that the closest translation of Abba is Daddy.

An interesting article:
http://www.orthodoxresearchinsti tute.org/articles/bible/tarazi_name_of_god.htm

in hiding
11-25-2007, 10:49 PM
That brings me to this question, which may be off topic, but am I the only one who gets really bent outta shape when people refer to God as "Dad" or "Daddy"?. I think I read from your post you may not be crazy about that as well. Sorry if I misunderstood. I know there are several names of God in the Bible, but I don't believe He's ever referred to as Daddy. It seems such a worldy way to address our Holy Father. I think there should be more reverence when we discuss, and especially when we address God. The sooner that movement goes away the better!

My post, at least that part of it, was more of a slam at the superficial catch phrases / attitudes that tend to permeate. I think using "Dad" in and of itself to refer to God is fine, but sometimes our reverence is boiled down to fancy t-shirt slogans and witty catch phrases and that frustrates me.

cheewiee
11-25-2007, 10:56 PM
My post, at least that part of it, was more of a slam at the superficial catch phrases / attitudes that tend to permeate. I think using "Dad" in and of itself to refer to God is fine, but sometimes our reverence is boiled down to fancy t-shirt slogans and witty catch phrases and that frustrates me.

I think I started a Thread along the similar lines....

in hiding
11-25-2007, 11:15 PM
I think I started a Thread along the similar lines....

you did, i was trying to figure out how i wanted to say my piece in that thread and it hit me in this one while i was responding. That thread could've gone a couple different ways and i really didn't want to jump in to that one :)

TN3Dmom
11-25-2007, 11:21 PM
KJV Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

I've been told that the closest translation of Abba is Daddy.

An interesting article:
http://www.orthodoxresearchinsti tute.org/articles/bible/tarazi_name_of_god.htm

Thanks for the clarification, Jason. I should've known you'd have the scoop.:D Now I might not have that "nails on a chalkboard" reaction when I hear it used in prayer. I still prefer not to use it. Dad and daddy to me should be used to describe our earthly fathers, who are flawed and imperfect, and in some cases, downright mean or abusive (not my case at all). I have trouble comparing our Holy Father to that image. I know my dad loves me dearly, but I think it pales in comparison to the love my Holy Father has for me.

hochspeyer
11-25-2007, 11:53 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Jason. I should've known you'd have the scoop.:D Now I might not have that "nails on a chalkboard" reaction when I hear it used in prayer. I still prefer not to use it. Dad and daddy to me should be used to describe our earthly fathers, who are flawed and imperfect, and in some cases, downright mean or abusive (not my case at all). I have trouble comparing our Holy Father to that image. I know my dad loves me dearly, but I think it pales in comparison to the love my Holy Father has for me.

Actually, God the Father is the archtype of fatherhood. I once heard a public service announcement about male parental unit responsibility (secular, of course, but pretty much on the money):

Anyone can be a father; it takes a special man to be a Dad.

Jason
11-26-2007, 12:06 AM
Father

Romans 8:15
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

Before I became a Christian, I didn't have a clear view of God. I knew God had created the universe, but God seemed nothing more than a force at times.

I did pray to God often, especially in high school. But my religious upbringing taught me to read prayers out of a prayer book. So every night I opened my prayer book and read my prayers to God. I never felt a connection with God though. My prayers felt like nothing more than fulfilling a religious duty.

I didn't realize that God wanted to be a Father to me.

When we give our lives to Christ, God adopts us into His family and we become His children.

When my pastor adopted a couple boys and a girl, they by law became his children. They have just as much claim on him as their father as his natural son.

My pastor's adopted children now have his last name. God too has placed His name upon us.

My pastor has listed his adopted children in his will as heirs. God too has made us heirs to the kingdom and joint-heirs with His Son Jesus Christ.

More importantly though, my pastor loves his adopted children with a true fatherly love. He shows them his love through caring for them, providing for them, teaching them, disciplining them and listening to them.

God loves us with that true fatherly love. He cares for us. God concerns Himself with our every need, always looking out for our best interests.

God provides for us. He knows what we need and puts those provisions in place. I'm so thankful that God provides me shelter, food and clothing. He has also provided me with so many dear Christian brothers and sisters.

God teaches us. He shows us through His Word how we should live our lives. He also teaches us through the example of Jesus Christ. When we don't know what to do, we can go to our Father's book and learn from Him and learn how Jesus dealt with similar situations.

God disciplines us. Every good father knows that a child needs discipline to grow into a strong adult. God wants us to grow in Him so he sometimes disciplines us to keep us on the right track.

God listens to us. We don't need a prayer book like I once used. We can talk to him from our heart. We can share our needs, our desires, our dreams, our frustrations. God listens because He loves us.

We can crawl up in God's lap and rest our head against His chest. We can look up into His gentle eyes and say, "I love you, Father."

-Jason Mitchener

SueQ
11-26-2007, 03:33 AM
"Dad" or "Daddy" is more intimate, less formal and I think people who use this want to emphasize that.....though, I agree, I'm not comfortable using that in place of "Father" as a habit...

RevZeek
11-26-2007, 01:23 PM
Thanks for posting that about WC. The seeker-sensitive movement has had me scratching my head for many years.

Salome
11-26-2007, 02:01 PM
Me too, especially in the past 5 or so years. It seems to be that "entertaining" is the order of the day. When I go to church on Sunday mornings I want the word of God preached without apology, which is what the lost need to hear. When you start tip toeing around the truth, I think it's hard to stop. I don't know. Those are just some of the thoughts I've had regarding this subject.

jesus loves me
03-08-2008, 05:04 AM
When i'm in pain or scared, he is to me what he was to christ - my "abba" my daddy. that's how i cry out to him in those times. daddy.

ExtravagantlyLoved
03-08-2008, 08:59 AM
My family and I started to go to a different church a few months ago for this reason specifically. The church we were at wasn't interested in leaving it's "seeker sensitive" roots, even though there were many who were trying to move away from that, but in the end the elders (most of them) put their feet down and we knew then that we couldn't stay there.

jesus loves me
03-08-2008, 10:26 PM
I know one long time believer at willow - she gets what she needs at the weeknight service for mature believers. another long time believer left willow because she needed more than "jesus loves me". my own church is mainly geared to long time believers.

Genna14
03-09-2008, 06:37 AM
Actually, God the Father is the archtype of fatherhood. I once heard a public service announcement about male parental unit responsibility (secular, of course, but pretty much on the money):

Anyone can be a father; it takes a special man to be a Dad.
That quote brought a few tears to my eyes since I grew up without a dad. My mom remarried when I was 18 to the man I call my dad.

I never had the problem with calling God "Daddy" "Dad" or "Father" because the Bible says "God is the father to the fatherless" and I believe with my whole heart that means he is the one that those of use who dont have one can call Daddy.

Sorry for kinda going off here...

Evanescence
03-09-2008, 02:25 PM
"To fear God is the beginning of wisdom.." -- The Bible

"To respect your dad.."Father" is the beginning of wisdom..." -- My Grandad

"Gee...Imagine that...." -- Ev

:cool:

Gaudete
06-10-2008, 04:15 AM
*bump*

Just found this thread and it touched a part of my heart.

We joined our current church about a year ago and I'm sad to say that I'm finding it's not the place we thought it was going to be. Turns out it's a classic example of the "church growth model" seeker-sensitive, purpose-driven church -- philosophies that I didn't even realize existed until very recently. I knew something started to not feel "right" a few months ago, and now am able to put a name to it. I'm heartsick. I should have known something was up. It's a UMC congregation, but the name of the church doesn't even state that, so as not to "scare people away" (yes, that's a quote from one of the pastors). I found an essay online the other day that defined the "warning signs" of the CGM, and my church fits right in with the profile.

So my question is: what do I do now? How can I make sure we don't make the same mistake when we look for a new church?

SmileyFreak1981
06-10-2008, 06:08 PM
A healthy church is one in which there are ministries which speak to the seeker, the "baby" believer, and the mature Christian in lay ministry, and points in between.

I'm hoping that at some point in the next couple of years my church can be at the point where we have something to offer every believer's maturity level and spiritual giftedness. We aren't quite there yet.