The Christian Subculture

[cheewiee]

A couple of weeks ago, there was a discussion in a small group that I am apart of surrounding the Christian Subculture. The context of this discussion was really Romans 12:1&2.

In these two passages, Paul tells the Roman believers to not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the "renewing" of the mind.

In the course of the discussion, a notion came up that his supprisingly close to home. That notion, is that Christians have developed this subculture, of music, apperal, vocabulary, and etc, and that this "subculture" has led us to beleive that we are not conforming to this world, but in reality we are. Because Paul isn't talking about clothing, or vocabulary, he is talking about the worlds system.

So basicly I wanted to get everyone's take on the Christian Subculture... You know, The God's Gym shirts, the Frogs saying God.. Wise.. Er..., The WWJD bracelets, and yes even Christian Rock music....

[Evanescence]

Paul's suggestions are notable and good but nothing more....

What is the reference point for "do not conform to the world" or be not of the world?"

The Amish?

A Monk?

Joel Osteen?

Joyce Meyer?

My opinion? <--- my favorite :cool:

The Bible is certainly not specific about many things...such as this and also lists in Timothy. Surely, somethings are cut/dried but other are subject to culture and interpretation....to opinion really.

One persons "worldly ways" is anothers everyday life....

[SueQ]

We already are "of the world", having been conceived and born.....we are told not to "conform to the world"....its standards, values, practices......about Christian subculture.....the t-shirts, bracelets, etc. are ways to acknowledge your beliefs and can lead the way to witnessing for Christ...as well as remind yourself in those moments of temptation.....Christian Rock bands.....ways to worship and witness....I'd have to think about the term "subculture"....I guess if it is, it is one that is open to everyone......anyone can become a part of it...:D .....

[cheewiee]

I hate to say it, but wearing dorky unoriogional, uncreative ripoff/spoofs of our culture isn't witnessing. it is being lazy.

[Salome]

and that, of course, is YOUR opinion.

Your "dorkiness" is another person's "cool".

We've all been created by the same Creator, saved and unsaved. So many different tastes in music, books, art, the way we spend our free time, the way we worship on Sunday. I love music and enjoy listening to all different kinds. But the Spirit is at work in me and nothing moves me more than listening to Third Day praise my Father!! And I can praise right along with them. As Christians we look at the world in a different way -- it is not where we belong, and we only have a little bit of time while we're here and we must be sharing the Good News.

I think with the Spirit inside of you, He'll let you know when something's not right whether it is who you're with, or what you're watching or what you're listening to. And then it's up to you to decide what to do.

So if I like the sound of rock music, I'm being part of the world if I listen to secular rock music or conforming if I'm listening to Christian rock?

I'm not done thinking about this .......

[Mr.Elwood]

To me, that is correct. Even this board is just another version of the real world. We cloak it in “Christianity”, but it’s just another way for us to be with “like minded people”. Essentially the world is made up of connections of like minded people and their economic power to persuade people to sell to them and their personal interests.

Christian culture is simply one more special interests group that carries economic weight. Most of the best thinkers and teachers I’ve ever known have no clue about “life”. They see things outside of everyday life and live their lives in pursuit of broader concepts and bigger ideals than getting through today. The can not give you much more than recent news. No top 40 on the radio and no idea what TV is doing these days. They spend their free time internal to family, or external trying the leave this earth a better place for having been here... they spend zero time trying to fit in..

99% of the Christian movement today is geared to showcase our faith to ourselves and has little to no effect on the real world we are supposed to be witnessing to. You can not earn your way to heaven, but you can earn lives by working and doing deeds in this world while not conforming to it.
Anything you do with the specific intent to showcase your faith is no different than someone getting a tattoo to showcase their belief in their own free will. We have unfortunately become so gullible as a group we think we can buy someone else’s salvation by wearing things, listing to things, and reading things (other than the Bible).

Jesus won people by doing things and being involved in the world. He never conformed to it and never created he own genre of Faith. His Faith is simplistic and pure. Our approach to this world should be simplistic and pure and it doesn’t involve buying anything.

And yes… I think back at myself and sometimes I want to puke and how caught-up I got in the stereotypical-Christian-tshirt-buying-bracelet-wearing-concert-going-sending-money-disconnected-works-challenged-lazy-child of Christ I had become.

That is, as someone else stated, my own view on it and not intended to be a personal attack on anyone else, and anyone’s life and how they live it.. This is just my opinion on the original question.

[cheewiee]

I know it came of harsh, but really we seem more willing to live our faith on our sleeves and not in our hearts. I really like how you put it El.

[Changed 4 Ever]

I have been thinking in a similar way myself. I never really bought into the subculture. I do not own any Christian T-shirts, bracelets, etc... No fish on my car, you get the idea. For me its all about how I can show love to people, from my neighbor who is sick across the street, to the homeless men who keep showing up on the corner near my house. I pray daily for God to bring me opportunities to serve Him. Daily my prayer is that I would love as Jesus loves, desire what God desires, and that my heart would break over the same things that break God's heart. Literally I want to be His hands and feet however He wants to use me.

[TN3Dmom]

I have more than a few tshirts with jeweled crosses on them, and I do buy tshirts from Christian concerts that I attend, and wear those quite often. I don't feel it's an advertisement so much as just a preference of what I like. I don't see anything wrong with displaying your faith in any way that suits you. I have had several people comment on my shirts, but it's usually not an indepth discussion on Christianity that results. I would not be opposed to that if it happened, though.

[kiwisongbird]

Living in an Asian country the Christian Subculture thing is more the way we live our lives rather than the Christian paraphanalia we own as we can't buy much of it here. Things Buddhist? No problem - just pop down the road to the local shop! Although Buddhism isn't a subculture here, it's the culture!

Jesus turfed the people selling loads of stuff in church out! He was angry with them - He said they had turned God's house into a den of thieves... I know there is a lot more behind that scripture, but at times feel that with the buying of t-shirts, music, books, cruises, trips to the holy land and all that kind of stuff... maybe, just maybe we are not praying as much as we ought?

Loving you all,
Sharon LJ :)

[freakysoccer]

i do feel that there is somewhat of a subcluture in the christian community, but i dont' see anything wrong with apparel, accessories, or things like that. i think that if you like it then wear it. and to me when i wear a third day shirt or my cross necklace made with wood from the holy land, it reminds me of how my savior died for me and everything God had done in my life. so i don't consider myself part of any subcluture, because the reason of why i wear these things comes from the heart. i believe in God and am not afraid to show it. to me these things give me a small reminder to act right, and to love, and to help reach out to those in need.

[TN3Dmom]

i do feel that there is somewhat of a subcluture in the christian community, but i dont' see anything wrong with apparel, accessories, or things like that. i think that if you like it then wear it. and to me when i wear a third day shirt or my cross necklace made with wood from the holy land, it reminds me of how my savior died for me and everything God had done in my life. so i don't consider myself part of any subcluture, because the reason of why i wear these things comes from the heart. i believe in God and am not afraid to show it. to me these things give me a small reminder to act right, and to love, and to help reach out to those in need.


I agree 100%. It seems the ideas others have here (not criticizing, just pointing out) is that people who wear these things are doing it in lieu or serving, praying, studying the bible, or something. I wear my tshirts proudly, but I don't feel that's a substitute for anyhting else. I continue to do all those things. I'm just like everyone else, though, I feel guilty that I don't do enough at times.

[EmmoGomer]

I find this very interesting as a non-American. We do not have so much of this subculture here in the UK. From what I can see in the States, it seems you could surround yourself with Christain TV, Radio, schools etc and never have to stand on your own two feet.
I'm reminded of a friend who's American friend came to stay here in England. He was so horrified by our TV programmes and music videos, simply because he would never watch or listen to anything other than Christian stuff.
We are told to in the world but not of it - as has already been said. It would be so easy to never meet or be involved with people who are not saved. We are called to preach the gospel, heal the sick etc. How can we do this if we don't ever step out of our comfort zone?
I AM including myself in this OK folks?!!!

[WeaselInYerFoot]

This is my opinion,

The first part of verse 1 mentions God's mercy which Paul had just finished expounding upon in chapter 11. Chapter 11 had to do with what appears to have been a problem that he was trying to fix. The gentiles seemed to have rejected the Jews and were boasting about how they are saved and the Jews weren't. In Chapter 11, Paul sets them straight and says something like "Look, the only reason you are now saved is because God has hardened their hearts so that you, the gentiles can be saved! You better thank God that he has ingrafted you into his tree because the very branches you are holding on to, are us! the Jews! It's Gods mercy that has saved you!".

Chapter 12 is a continuation of Chapter 11 as indicated by the first word: Therefore. The pattern that Paul explains in verse two really has nothing to do with t-shirts, music, social events or anything of that sort. It has to do with a certain social interaction and expression. Before 12:2 Paul is giving the gentiles a faceslap about boasting and looking down on the Jews. Then, after 12:2 he goes into telling us to be this way with everyone including with other members of the Church ("Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.").

After he goes on about respecting those withing the church that have different roles (as those who prophesy aren't any better than those who simply serve). He goes on to what I think is deeply tied into 12:2, starting with 12:9...Love! When you read 12:9-21 it is clear that everything he mentions is opposite of what is the pattern of this world. This is section, is what is truly against the worldly pattern! These are the steps to not living like the world does! not the t-shirts and music and decorations. It is this 12:9-21, the very definition of love that makes us different!

-Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse

-Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.

-Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

-Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

etc.

When one puts the rest of the verses surrounding this one into the big picture, it is clear that we have greatly taken it out of context. Ironically, some people take these two verses so much at heart (and leave out the rest) that they end up doing exactly the opposite of what Paul intended in the first place.

[SueQ]

I hate to say it, but wearing dorky unoriogional, uncreative ripoff/spoofs of our culture isn't witnessing. it is being lazy.

No, but it opens the door to it....speaking from experience....

[Salome]

Thanks for your post Weasel. I agree. I was thinking last night about this topic. We're not so different from the culture in that we're all created in the image of God. Which explains why our "subculture" is similar. We once were lost and now we're found -- by the grace of God, praise the Lord!! I love when Mac sings "All I want is love" -- isn't that the truth for everyone. And as a Christian I've been given so much love to share and I think that is what draws people to the Lord. Everyone can witness by showing love.

You know what I love about wearing my Third Day concert t's? Especially the one that says "Cry Out to Jesus" on the back? I find it's not a witnessing tool as much as it is an encouragement to other Christians. I love wearing it to work and hearing people say "Nice shirt". So now I know that the janitor at work is a Christian and we like to talk music. And now I know that one of the substitute teacher's is a believer. It brings that connection out quicker especially when you're with people but don't have the opportunity to sit down and have conversations with -- just passing each other in the hallway.

And a once close friend of mine was saved listening to Christian music. As I'm sure many are. God uses and blesses our attempts and efforts to share Him with others no matter if it is "lazy". NOTHING is to hard for Him -- haha!! :D You know, I think if you're a growing Christian, the "laziness" works it's way out, or however you want to define it. That's what I sense from some here. I think we're all convicted of different things at different times.

But I do agree that in America it is easy for Christians to isolate ouselves and not have to deal with the outside world, per se. But I don't think that's all bad. We are called to give special consideration to our brothers and sisters in Christ in their time of need, in encouraging them in their walk. I need that breather in the corner to help me in the ring. But I agree, it does get comfy and cozy and who wants to leave that?

[VerbumReale]

This is my opinion,

The first part of verse 1 mentions God's mercy which Paul had just finished expounding upon in chapter 11. Chapter 11 had to do with what appears to have been a problem that he was trying to fix. The gentiles seemed to have rejected the Jews and were boasting about how they are saved and the Jews weren't. In Chapter 11, Paul sets them straight and says something like "Look, the only reason you are now saved is because God has hardened their hearts so that you, the gentiles can be saved! You better thank God that he has ingrafted you into his tree because the very branches you are holding on to, are us! the Jews! It's Gods mercy that has saved you!".

Chapter 12 is a continuation of Chapter 11 as indicated by the first word: Therefore. The pattern that Paul explains in verse two really has nothing to do with t-shirts, music, social events or anything of that sort. It has to do with a certain social interaction and expression. Before 12:2 Paul is giving the gentiles a faceslap about boasting and looking down on the Jews. Then, after 12:2 he goes into telling us to be this way with everyone including with other members of the Church ("Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.").

After he goes on about respecting those withing the church that have different roles (as those who prophesy aren't any better than those who simply serve). He goes on to what I think is deeply tied into 12:2, starting with 12:9...Love! When you read 12:9-21 it is clear that everything he mentions is opposite of what is the pattern of this world. This is section, is what is truly against the worldly pattern! These are the steps to not living like the world does! not the t-shirts and music and decorations. It is this 12:9-21, the very definition of love that makes us different!

-Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse

-Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.

-Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

-Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.

etc.

When one puts the rest of the verses surrounding this one into the big picture, it is clear that we have greatly taken it out of context. Ironically, some people take these two verses so much at heart (and leave out the rest) that they end up doing exactly the opposite of what Paul intended in the first place.


I personally don't really have much use for a lot of the Christian paraphinilia in my life either. But in defense of some of the people on this thread, I don't think anybody was suggesting that simply wearing a Christian t-shirt or bracelet etc. is any sort of substitution for living out our faith and witnessing to to our faith through words and deeds. As long as we are blessing those who persecute us, rejoicing with those who rejoice, mourning with those who mourn, living in harmony, rejecting pride, conceit and associating with people in lowly position and not repaying evil for evil etc as the passage that you pointed out speaks of, then we need not worry about whether we are wearing some sort of Christian t-shirt. But some people might just wear them because they like them. I have Orange County Chopper t-shirts that I wear, so I can't fault someone for wearing a shirt with Bible verses on it, as long as they aren't seeing wearing that shirt as a substitution for providing a living witness.

Of course Christian clothing etc is no substitution for providing a living witness, but neither is it a hindrance to it as long as people don't see it as some sort of substitution for provding a living witness.

The closest thing I have to a Christian t-shirt is the shirt below. I got it because I thought it was funny. Some might get other more blatantly Christian-themed clothing because they think it is funny, charming, poetic etc. It doesn't mean they are being lazy.

[SueQ]

I do have a fish on the back of my truck and a bumper sticker.....and it has led to opportunities for conversations with co-workers and strangers....it is also a reminder to me of whom I represent....because although I am saved I admit that I slip .....And I agree that to let that be my only witness is lazy...but it is not.....And if listening to 3D is simply for my pleasure then it is of the flesh...but it is not....it is another way for me to worship and express my love for the Lord....and if coming onto the boards here was, again, simply for social interaction, then, it is a waste.....but through many conversations on the boards here I have found support, I have been sharpened in the Word, I have been challenged to be a better witness for the faith, I have grown closer in my walk with the Lord....

[WeaselInYerFoot]

I personally don't really have much use for a lot of the Christian paraphinilia in my life either. But in defense of some of the people on this thread, I don't think anybody was suggesting that simply wearing a Christian t-shirt or bracelet etc. is any sort of substitution for living out our faith and witnessing to to our faith through words and deeds. As long as we are blessing those who persecute us, rejoicing with those who rejoice, mourning with those who mourn, living in harmony, rejecting pride, conceit and associating with people in lowly position and not repaying evil for evil etc as the passage that you pointed out speaks of, then we need not worry about whether we are wearing some sort of Christian t-shirt. But some people might just wear them because they like them. I have Orange County Chopper t-shirts that I wear, so I can't fault someone for wearing a shirt with Bible verses on it, as long as they aren't seeing wearing that shirt as a substitution for providing a living witness.

Of course Christian clothing etc is no substitution for providing a living witness, but neither is it a hindrance to it as long as people don't see it as some sort of substitution for provding a living witness.

The closest thing I have to a Christian t-shirt is the shirt below. I got it because I thought it was funny. Some might get other more blatantly Christian-themed clothing because they think it is funny, charming, poetic etc. It doesn't mean they are being lazy.

I never said that wearing such a t-shirt was wrong. I personally don't like them (specially the ones that imitate other popular brands), but then again I don't like tie-die shirts either, or ones that are highly animated with some image that surrounds the whole torso (like the ones that a giant wolf howling at the moon and scenery expands beyond the ribs), that's just personall preference. But I never said they were wrong. What's wrong is when people think that the only way to submit to the instructions of romans 12:2 are these things, such as wearing these t-shirts or listening to specific types of music. chapter 12 is far from that, not even close. The intentions of SueQ and Salome are different. If they feel like wearing them, that's perfectly fine. How can a person say it's wrong when their intentions are to facilitate spiritual conversations with others? I can't. I don't think it's at all wrong. My beef is with those who think that this is the meaning of Romans 12:2.

Great shirt btw! that one I like.

[rossid]

I agree 100%. It seems the ideas others have here (not criticizing, just pointing out) is that people who wear these things are doing it in lieu or serving, praying, studying the bible, or something. I wear my tshirts proudly, but I don't feel that's a substitute for anyhting else. I continue to do all those things. I'm just like everyone else, though, I feel guilty that I don't do enough at times.I do the same thing and just posted that on the Loon thread a short time ago. So I'm part of the subculture that is actually part of the culture at large.

BUT, I wear a Raiders polo, Hawkeyes polo, Nike shoes, etc... Those are signs of the culture too. The culture - we may immerse ourselves, withdraw ourselves, or remain neutral. Yes their are all sorts of steps in between too.

[Mr.Elwood]

Just so we a clear, because it seems like certain issues get a little confuzzled sometimes around here..

How you walk your walk, and do what you do is your own relationship with God. I still have some stuff I wear and stuff people ask me about from time to time, but I’m no longer as zealous as I used to be in acquiring those things. My walk has changed and the tools He is giving me to walk my current path are different than where it once was. I just want to make sure anyone reading my previous post understands my reaction to the original question has to deal with me and my personal walk, and how it relates to people and churches I directly interact with. I am not trying to accuse any Christian that their purchases or use of “stuff” is some how wrong or useless for their own walk.

Now, back on topic.
I submitted this a while ago and received some interesting feedback. I’ll post it here and see what y’all think.. y’all being reminded this is from summer and the “festival season” and it is my reaction to a few other influences previous to this “thought” being posted.

Example:
I go to Church on Sunday: I meet with the Men on Tuesday: Then Bible Study on Wednesday: Worship practice on Thursday. Friday I spend with my family and Saturday will be spent doing some activity with friends from Church or in our 'hood'. Unless I missed something in my scenario, this is a fairly typical schedule for anyone actually participating in their Church correct? I'm not calling it wrong or dysfunctional, but where is the regular time to reach the lost and bring Jesus to those who need it? See, it struck me while standing in a ball field watching a concert that I was in Church, surrounded by other Christians doing the typical routine and convincing myself it was something else. Just because you can't see the Church walls doesn't mean your are not still in your comfy Church singing praises and being all religious, but underneath it all we've still done nothing to increase the kingdom or reach the lost. We convince ourselves we are doing some good deed by being a smiling face for a friend, but then when do we ever see that friend again? We convince ourselves we are providing a resource, or event, for the lost to be introduced to Jesus, but who brought them there? I know I didn't, and that van/bus load of youth probably didn't..etc.

So, why don't we simply go back to packing box lunches, finding an area that needs help and GO to them and bring Jesus to them instead of creating events where we expect them to come to Him?

I know I keep sounding negative, but I'm really not.
I just get hit by some of my own inconsistencies in Faith and will share those to see what other might have to add.

[TN3Dmom]

I go to Church on Sunday: I meet with the Men on Tuesday: Then Bible Study on Wednesday: Worship practice on Thursday. Friday I spend with my family and Saturday will be spent doing some activity with friends from Church or in our 'hood'. Unless I missed something in my scenario, this is a fairly typical schedule for anyone actually participating in their Church correct? I'm not calling it wrong or dysfunctional, but where is the regular time to reach the lost and bring Jesus to those who need it? See, it struck me while standing in a ball field watching a concert that I was in Church, surrounded by other Christians doing the typical routine and convincing myself it was something else. Just because you can't see the Church walls doesn't mean your are not still in your comfy Church singing praises and being all religious, but underneath it all we've still done nothing to increase the kingdom or reach the lost. We convince ourselves we are doing some good deed by being a smiling face for a friend, but then when do we ever see that friend again? We convince ourselves we are providing a resource, or event, for the lost to be introduced to Jesus, but who brought them there? I know I didn't, and that van/bus load of youth probably didn't..etc.

So, why don't we simply go back to packing box lunches, finding an area that needs help and GO to them and bring Jesus to them instead of creating events where we expect them to come to Him?

It sounds like our lives are very similar. I have surrounded myself with like-minded friends who happen to be church members, and that helps me in my walk with God. I do wonder some days if I even encountered a non-believer. I do, however, feel church recreation is a HUGE tool to reach the non-churched. I make it a point on each ball team to meet all the parents I see who are not members, and invite them to church. What I have found mostly is those families aren't necessarily non-believers, they just don't make church a priority. I just try to make them feel as welcome as possible and hope they will feel at home enough to come to church. It did happen this year--a family who had been playing soccer for many years did come to our Sunday service and now they are attending regularly. I know Rick Warren said that everyone should take a mission trip at some point in their lives. Right now my children are small, and I fully intend to do some travel mission work when my kids are old enough to go, but for right now, I do what I can by helping out with various missions closer to home and inviting people to church when I see the opportunity. I'm certain I could be doing more, but I don't think those events which celebrate Christ and bring other Christians closer together are a deterrent to evangelism. Who knows how many lost souls are saved at those type events, no matter who brought them? God Does!!!:D

[SueQ]

There is a church nearby that has a sign posted as you drive out of the parking lot: "NOW ENTERING THE MISSION FIELD"......I love that......my church is heavily invovled in foreign missions while my friend's church concentrates on the local community....the message needs to be everywhere and we need to reach people in various ways.......

My schedule doesn't resemble Elwood's or TN3Dmom.....church on Sunday and sometimes on Wednesday....listen to Moody Bible Radio much of the time...my evenings consist of being at home, grading papers and taking care of my daughter or meetings or running errands....I find that while I like to spend time with other believers, through work and my daughter's school I am given opportunities to share the message to those who may not be.....God puts us where we need to be ....

[rossid]

I thought about work earlier today, either after, or before posting, and it is cliche' but it is my mission field. Spend a lot of time there. Don't hang around with the Christians all the time.